Advise with purchasing/owning ferrocement boat

MrCramp

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Surveyor for Ferroboats

Martin Evans is a respected surveyor based at Harwich and he used to own (might still do) a replica Thames barge which was built out of Ferro Cement. I think it was built in the 1980s. I would get him to survey any boat, ferro or otherwise, that I was considering purchasing.
Martin Evans
Esplanade House
32 Kings Quay Street
Harwich
Essex
CO12 3ES
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Phone: 01255 556216
Mobile: 07887 724055
Fax :01255 556216


I had him look at a Samson Marine Design C-Quence 36 which was in a local boatyard. The boat was one of a number built at a yard on the Firth of Forth, I think near Queensferry. He was not happy with the method of construction so I didn't bother with it. Almost all the Samson designed boats looked very good indeed, particularly the 54ft C-Lord. The link below take you to a blog for the owner of one, although why they say it is (Sampson) with a P I don't know.
http://www.schoonercharter.com/index.html

I have got a number of books published by the Samson design company out in my garage and they list and give details of all their designs. I have never seen so many replies before on this forum to a ferro question!
 

seadago

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I have this ferro boat at the moment and have been through it with the builder who re-fitted it and read a detailed survey. It is extremely well built and the survey is very good indeed, with the surveyor recommending the boat highly.

I think if you find a good professionally built one, they can be exceptional value.

Forumite Codstewart has a ferro boat, maybe pm her about this thread.

Jonic
That's an absolute beauty. I'm not so ambitious. Thanks for the tip. I'll get in touch with Codstewart.
 

seadago

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I contributed this on a previous thread. A shortened extract:
"The problem with any ferro-cement hull, particularly an amateur build with no provenance, comes from the difficulty of knowing if the critical mixing, pouring and setting techniques have been correctly observed and that's after an adequate steel frame and ribs have been properly welded up. Most importantly, that the mix is applied evenly, internally vibrated through for the team of expert plasterers to fair the hull with sufficient layer over the steel mesh and framing - and all in one application. Only a sectional destruction test will assure that was complied with and that there were no voids - in that section."
If you read the entire posting you will see that a professional build does not guarantee correct construction.

Thanks Barnac1e. Agree in principle. On the other hand, does anybody -even mass market builders - "guarantee" the quality of construction on any material? Being built by a pro - though I could not find the builder on the web, maybe they no longer exist - does lend some confidence. Apart, like Monique sais below, the Dutch normally would not botch such a job. The boat is still afloat after 30 odd years. No guarantees though, I know.
 

seadago

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A few years ago we (as brokers) sold a Hartley 39 that had done four transats with her then (very experieced) owner. She went to be based in the Shetlands in new ownership after a good survey. The new owner later told me he was very plaesed with her. The Hartley 39 is very different to most people's ideas of ferro boats as heavy ugly long-keelers - she looks like an enlarged Contessa 32. See http://www.hartley-boats.com/39.html

Good ferro is very very good, many of the bad ones are horrid.
Hi jwilson
I know! that's what attracted me to her in the first place. I haven't seen her in the dry but looks like a larger Contessa, beamier, roomier, but with same lines and keel profile. There's more to performance and handling than lines. Hence my interesting in contacting Hartleys owners. Thanks for the info.
 

seadago

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Thanks Gordon
First, the boat looks absolutely fantastic! If not too much touble, will send my details by PM as I'd like to pick your brains on the restore & refit job. Too few sources of expertisr around to miss any! :)
 

seadago

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Any boat that's not the norm, of whatever material, a one off, will be hard to shift in a market today that's dominated by brands, no matter how well built. As with all things, it really depends what you want it for, and how deep your pockets are...

Quite right! Shallow poket though, shallow... and holed at the bottom...:(
Hehehe... what I want it for. Dreams of romantic sunsets at sea in the tropics apart?, I want if for:
1) mostly coastal sailing in the next five years (Atlantic seaboard, the Med), but with the potential for long distance passage making and blue water cruising thereafter, possibly a circumnavigation.
2) serve as liveaboard from day one with reasonable confort (not luxury). This means a minimum of 35' LOA
3) capable of single-handed sailing, both in terms of the type of rig as well as ease of handling (been also looking at a couple of Freedom 35' cat ketches... lovely boats too!)
4) A 35 footer will be quite expensive to berth in the UK, so regular maintenance must be comparatively inexpensive and not require a specialist's hand; i.e. I should be able to do most of it with a bit of learning and practice, and light duty tooling. Major engine work excluded.

For the rest, no idea! I'm sure some will come though:cool:
 

seadago

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MrCramp. Thanks! Quite useful info to have. Will get in touch depending on what I decide.
Wow, a lot of useful info and tips in this thread. Didn't expect it either! :) MANY THANKS EVERYONE!
 
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TiggerToo

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I have this ferro boat at the moment and have been through it with the builder who re-fitted it and read a detailed survey. It is extremely well built and the survey is very good indeed, with the surveyor recommending the boat highly.

I think if you find a good professionally built one, they can be exceptional value.

Forumite Codstewart has a ferro boat, maybe pm her about this thread.

Having parked next to her off St Martin's (IoScilly) last summer I can confirm she is a real "head turner". I had no idea she was a ferro, and at that price she is incredible. If I had the dosh and fewer family/work committeeman, I'd be off today with the checkbook... whaooo.
 

Oldhairy

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I built a Hartley RORC 39 about 30 years ago ( plastered by professionals) and assume that is what you are asking about. By my observations the main reason ferro boats got a bad reputation is that a large proportion of home builders thought they absolutely knew more than the designer! So if 3/4" hull thickness was good then 1 1/4" must be better. And so on.
If the hull is epoxy coated and when you pull the skin fittings the holes are epoxied and the hull is the designed thickness you are on the right track.
The bulkheads are not integral to the structure so you can do anything you want with them. The original design allowed for ply or ferro cabin-sides but the cabin top was ply only. Not positive about the cockpit, mine was ply. I am a little uneasy about the ferro bulkheads, to the best of my memory they were meant to be ply as well. Hartley published a book that had a lot of good descriptions and photos about the construction.
As several posts have pointed out, if it hasn't fallen apart by now it is bound to be well built.
Good Luck !
 

seadago

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I built a Hartley RORC 39 about 30 years ago ( plastered by professionals) and assume that is what you are asking about. By my observations the main reason ferro boats got a bad reputation is that a large proportion of home builders thought they absolutely knew more than the designer! So if 3/4" hull thickness was good then 1 1/4" must be better. And so on.
If the hull is epoxy coated and when you pull the skin fittings the holes are epoxied and the hull is the designed thickness you are on the right track.
The bulkheads are not integral to the structure so you can do anything you want with them. The original design allowed for ply or ferro cabin-sides but the cabin top was ply only. Not positive about the cockpit, mine was ply. I am a little uneasy about the ferro bulkheads, to the best of my memory they were meant to be ply as well. Hartley published a book that had a lot of good descriptions and photos about the construction.
As several posts have pointed out, if it hasn't fallen apart by now it is bound to be well built.
Good Luck !

Thanks Oldhairy. It is I believe the same model. Glad to find a builder in the forum. Haven't seen the paperwork but it is, I believe, the model I am refering to. Did yo build it for your own use? If so, what's your experience in terms of performance, handling, etc?
 

jonic

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Having parked next to her off St Martin's (IoScilly) last summer I can confirm she is a real "head turner". I had no idea she was a ferro, and at that price she is incredible. If I had the dosh and fewer family/work committeeman, I'd be off today with the checkbook... whaooo.

Yes, she was in Scilly. I understand the tourist board used a picture of her at anchor on the front page of one of their brochures. The workmanship the owner has put in inside would probably have run into £100's of £1000's if he wasn't the owner of the yard. I have started to get interest from families who want to circumnavigate. She's ideal for that.

The owners tell me that a diamond cutter is fine for cutting holes, if it is an area that is close to or underwater, they drill out a slightly larger hole and fill it with epoxy then drill it out next day. This gives a perfect seal, stops rust and insulates for electrolysis.
 
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Oldhairy

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Thanks Oldhairy. It is I believe the same model. Glad to find a builder in the forum. Haven't seen the paperwork but it is, I believe, the model I am refering to. Did yo build it for your own use? If so, what's your experience in terms of performance, handling, etc?
Truthfully I just started to build it to stay away from the ex. Once it was launched and we moved onboard I became a total Yotty. Sailed it for a few years without an engine. It is easily driven, if you can determine which way your cigarette smoke blows, you can sail the boat. The performance is nearly as good as an S&S 39. Try to get hold of Hartleys book to confirm it was built to specs. I seem to remember that the hull thickness was 5/8" or 3/4" Draft was 6'-0". On mine I extended the trunk cabin one frame ( 3'-1 1/2" ? )further aft. After consulting the designer. That ruled out the ferro cabin sides.
 

alant

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My experiences of ferro boats go back to looking at an Endurance which was stuck on the market at an improbably low asking price. It was my first experience of the prejudice surrounding the medium which came to the fore recently in a mega-thread on the Cruiser forum. It is worth a search.
In the end I was scared off the Endurance both by the doom-sayers and, to a lesser extent the teak deck which was shot.
Wind forward five years ebay presented me with another ferro - a John Samson ketch advertised as a Sea Breeze and lying in a sorry state in Liverpool.
After an eighteen month refit including re-powering I launched last July:
P9180356.jpg

Some opinions on the points raised by the OP:
a). On the whole the predjudices are voiced by peeps who have never had experience of the medium but who are keen to repeat some of the horror stories. I don't mind. It makes ferro a very affordable proposition.
b). If resale value is important then ferro may not be for you. I want a boat with good accommodation and sea-keeping qualities for the long haul and don't expect to buy another boat. Ever. (he said).
e). It is a falacy that ferro is uninsurable. Finding a surveyor qualified to pass an opinion may be more of a test, but the insurance companies are generally happy to take your money.
g). Substantial damage to a ferro hull is probably easier to repair than most other media. If the steel work is not exposed it will generally be a surface skim. Exposed armature (rebar) and mesh is cut out if gone to rust with new armature welded in and mesh interleaved. Technology has moved on significantly on the use of repair mortar. We have moved on from portland cement and sand, through a mix with vinyl to cement and epoxy mix. I use a commercially available product, developed to repair motorway bridges after collisions.
h). On-going maintenance should work out substantially cheaper than for fibre-glass, wood, alloy and certainly steel. Occasionally a strand of mesh will bleed rust on the hull. I just grind it down to clean metail, apply rust neutraliser and a coat of Zinga then fill with mortar and repaint. Rubber chloride paint is recommended for new hulls but I use anything that takes my fancy. The hull is presently done with Toplac. Only the steering gear and prop is protected with anodes. None of the through-hull fittings (bronze) are wired.
i). Interior bulkheads will be in ply through bolted onto ferro dams, so there should be no problem routing cables and pipes. Adding through-hull fittings is interesting. Sods law says that wherever you choose it will have a section of armature under the surface which will need to be side-stepped. On decks I have cut out small sections of armature but I would be reluctant to do it on the hull. A hammer drill and wire cutters are usually sufficient and I have never had the surrounding material break up, even when having to resort to a cold chisel. A recommendation for major structural repairs is to hold a lump hammer on one side of the hull and pulverise the concrete with a hammer from the other.
I hope these experiences are of help in your decision making. Overall going the ferro route has enabled me to own a boat of a size and capability which I would not be able to afford otherwise.
If I can help in any other way send a pm.

Some years ago 70's-80's, their Endurance 35 won 'Boat of the Show' at Earls Court.

Unfortunately, the new owner ran it aground on a beach somewhere on the way up the East Coast, did not lay out anchors - the tide was falling - & when the tide filled again it was bounced & pounded to pieces on large boulders. Bloody shame, since it was a particularly well built boat.

Article was in PBO or YW.

PS - why should the steel armature/chicken wire rust, if it is out of contact with any air/oxygen?
 

BrianH

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Some years ago 70's-80's, their Endurance 35 won 'Boat of the Show' at Earls Court.

Unfortunately, the new owner ran it aground on a beach somewhere on the way up the East Coast, did not lay out anchors - the tide was falling - & when the tide filled again it was bounced & pounded to pieces on large boulders. Bloody shame, since it was a particularly well built boat.

Read my posting - referenced above in post #17 - here.

No amount of anchors would have helped, she was lying over on her bilge on solid rock shelves that ran well out with rocky outcrops. A rising, onshore wind was bringing rollers in and the pounding soon broke the watertight integrity long before she could have refloated - they were lucky to have been able to wade ashore.
 

ghostlymoron

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My advice is 'don't touch one with a barge pole'. No doubt there are some very fine ferroboats around but, if you buy one, you'll have it for life as they are virtually impossible to sell. They're as highly regarded as a chocolate fireguard.
 

TQA

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My advice is 'don't touch one with a barge pole'. No doubt there are some very fine ferroboats around but, if you buy one, you'll have it for life as they are virtually impossible to sell. They're as highly regarded as a chocolate fireguard.

Hmm I suggest you look at the for sale ads on this website http://www.ferroboats.com/

AND count the numbers of ads marked sold.

NON ferroboat owner but amateur myth buster.
 

cowpat

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I can only answer seadago with my personal experience. I built a 43' ferro boat, cutter rigged, and launched in 1984. So that's 29 years of continuious dependable pleasure from a boat that has given real service. There has been considerable modifications, as you would expect over the years to suit our requirements. Based in falmouth which may not be of any help as I can not see seadago's home on profile??
 
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