A bigger boat for next year

[andyb28]

Good Evening,

I have chopped back and forth between motor boats and sail boats as I couldn't make my mind up about the right direction. Part of the problem has been trying to accommodate my wife. Earlier this year we purchased a Nimbus, which is a lovely boat, but I have only managed to get my wife on it twice in 2023. After a very frank discussion, we have both come to the conclusion that she is never going to love boats the same way I do, and thats ok with both of us. I also have a little Hunter Horizon 23 that I can take out easily on my own.

The Nimbus is now on the market as its pointless having a boat of that value, just sitting unused. Any time I have free, it's more fun to go sailing.

So, when the Nimbus is gone, I am probably going to upgrade the Horizon to something a little bigger.

The biggest issue I have with the Horizon is I can't stand up in it (I'm 6ft tall).

So, I would prefer a sailboat with wheel steering. When taking friends out, it makes the cockpit more usable.
I'm on the East coast, so would prefer twin keels, but that appears quite a hard combination to find. (If not, then shallow draft would do)
Standing room for me
Length should be around 30-33ft
Coming into Brightlingsea against the tide seems quite the mission for my Horizons 1GM10 engine, so something with more grunt is a must.
Need to be able to single hand and control everything from the cockpit
The Nimbus is the first boat I have ever had with a Bow Thruster, I'm now spoilt and want it on the next sail boat.

Looking around on sites, I can find most of my wish list in Beneteau 321 / 331 models and thats about it.
I have owned a Hunter Legend (USA Hunter) before, which had most of these features, but I wouldnt want another one.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

[Bodach na mara]

You don't say whether you want a modern (expensive) boat, or whether you are prepared to settle for an older and cheaper one. I am biased, of course, but when you mentioned bilge keels I thought immediately of the Westerly range. In particular the 31 foot Berwick or Pentland are bilge keeled and both have 6ft 4" headroom through most of the accommodation. Having owned a similar boat, a Renown, I can testify that they are easy to handle, can be sailed single-handed and are good seaworthy vessels with powerful engines. They ar a bit old however and if you want something more modern then the Konsort from the same builder also has a bilge keel version and good headroom.

Good hunting.

 

[Tranona]

Depends on your budget. Very few boats under 30' have wheel steering, and even fewer bilge keel boats except the Westerlys mentioned

To get what you want you need to be looking at modern boats and well over 30' if you want a bow thruster as well - plus a budget of £40k+. Many people manage quite well on the East Coast with "normal" draft - that is on this size boat 1.5-2m draft. Bilge keels really offer little advantage unless you have a drying mooring. You will find drying out and even creek crawling less attractive when you own a boat that is more at home in the open sea. Some modern boats do have shallow draft options either lifting keels or shorter heavier fixed keels. My last boat was a Bavaria 33 with the 1.5m keel but on reflection I should have stuck with the standard 2m as I never really took advantage of the shallower draft except on the odd occasion anchoring in the shallower part of Newtown river. There are fewer shallow draft examples available and the lift keel boats usually sell at a premium.

Add to your list Bavaria 30,32 and 33, Jeanneau 32 in various guises as well as Beneteau, and Dufour 32. Most of these will have modern gear, but doubt many will have bow thrusters already fitted although in most cases it will be possible to retrofit. Budget £4-5k.

This might suit
forums.ybw.com/threads/selling-broker-or-not.601523/

No doubt you will get lots of other advice - everybody loves a "what boat" thread!

 

[bignick]

Have you considered a Dehler 32 ? Wheel steering, available with a shoal draught keel, and many also with a self tacking jib.

Also, if you’re after sailing performance and day sailing rather than going away, I’d consider a J/95, which has a drop keel out of a stub and twin rudders, so can float in water <1.0m.

However it’s unlikely that either of these type of boats would be fitted with a bow thruster..

 

[jac]

Remember that you can add a bow thruster for a few £k so my suggestion at that stage would be find The boat, try her and then add a thruster if you still want rather than discount one for not having one. IMHO many would not bother with a thruster for boats under 36-38 feet so you may miss many otherwise perfect boats

 

[Concerto]

Not particularly fast, but the Moody Eclipse 33 should meet your requirements.

Very few boats under 35ft have wheel steering as a tiller is more responsive and less likely to go wrong. I agree with jac, most boats could have a bow thruster fitted if needs be and the same applies with wheel steering. I sail the East Coast (and elsewhere) with a 1.6m fin Westerly Fulmar and prefer a tiller and do not need a bow thruster. You would be wise to reconsider what you want on all fronts as this will increase the available potential boats to consider.

 

[Ribtecer]

1980 Westerley Fulmar Bilge Keel Refurbed Engine, No Osmosis Excellent Condition | eBay

 

[fredrussell]

If you’re feeling flush a Parker 335 would suit. Wheel steering and 60cm draft with keel up. Will dry out upright too.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The Benneteau 311 comes in a lifting keel variant if you can find one. .

 

[Iliade]

Likewise the Ben Evasion 34.


O/T [New topic started] Surely lifting keel, wuith a much greater chance of getting unstuck, is better than bilge keels for west coast mud?

 

[andyb28]

Many thanks for the replies so far.

To answer a few of the points that have come up so far.

Bilge Keels - I am not set on them. I just like the ability to dry out. But other than when I am cleaning the boat, I do not do it that often.
Draft - I have to sail around work and dont want to be limited in some of the places I go too much at lower tides. Happy to have the option to lift a keel or have a shoal draft. My Horizon and Nimbus have a draft of around 1m and I can get most places at most low tides.
Bow Thruster - I think its best to take this out of the equation and retro fit it if needed. I have just found it super useful when turning in tight spaces.
Age of boat - Yes, I think it needs to be late 90's onwards really.

I have been looking at some of the suggestions, the one that really stands out is the Bavaria.

 

[Refueler]

I am against wheels on typical boats less than 36ft ... the wheel kills the cockpit space and older boats - awkward to get around. Tiller pivots up out of the way nicely ....

I think in the 33 range - plenty out there - depends how old design willing to go .... if age is not a concern - the old Westerly 33 before the naming convention - is a strong extremely capable boat ...

Colvic Countess ?

just two examples ...

For east coast ... my thoughts would be Bilge or lifting keel ...

 

[Refueler]

Many thanks for the replies so far.

To answer a few of the points that have come up so far.

Bilge Keels - I am not set on them. I just like the ability to dry out. But other than when I am cleaning the boat, I do not do it that often.
Draft - I have to sail around work and dont want to be limited in some of the places I go too much at lower tides. Happy to have the option to lift a keel or have a shoal draft. My Horizon and Nimbus have a draft of around 1m and I can get most places at most low tides.
Bow Thruster - I think its best to take this out of the equation and retro fit it if needed. I have just found it super useful when turning in tight spaces.
Age of boat - Yes, I think it needs to be late 90's onwards really.

I have been looking at some of the suggestions, the one that really stands out is the Bavaria.

Wearing flak jacket ..... Bav's - be careful as original were excellent - then mass production created a dog ... near bankruptcy caused a rethink and remodelling ... as Bavaria themselves publicly stated after being sued by USA Dealers - now job is to regain quality of build ....

The above is public fact ... and I am not just saying.

Personally ? If you can pay for a Bav - get a Jeanneau instead.

 

[Daydream believer]

I would forget bilge keels. Go for the better sailing quality of a fin. Better manouverability in marinas. A short fin will spin on a sixpence. As Tranona pointed out, once you get to 31 ft you can go places in much less time & creek crawling features less on one's agenda. I berth in a marina where access is limited to 3 hours each side of HW. In 20 years I have hardly found it an issue. I have had to wait a few times to get in & I have pushed through the silt when in a hurry. Because I tend to sail longer distances, rather than locally it really is just a matter of timing arrival & departure.
Many say that one needs a shallow draft on the east coast. But so many with bilge keel still end up making sure that they have over a metre below the keel. Running aground with a fin- which I have done very many times in 50 years- is much easier to get off than with a bilge keel. I have only been stuck twice in that time. Inspite of running hard on, with the kite up, at 8kts on a falling tide, I still got off by the skin of my teeth.
As for wheel steering, in older designs the wheel just ruins cockpit space & gives less feel on the helm.
If you are likely to sail short handed, then consider a boat with self tacking jib.
Obviously I am biased, but my 2003 Hanse 311 has decent headroom. Not quite enough for my 6ft 6ins. Berths are long as well, which must be considered.
But nothing wrong with most of the big name production boats from 2000 onwards. Just depends on the depth of your pocket.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I would forget bilge keels. Go for the better sailing quality of a fin. Better manouverability in marinas. A short fin will spin on a sixpence. As Tranona pointed out, once you get to 31 ft you can go places in much less time & creek crawling features less on one's agenda. I berth in a marina where access is limited to 3 hours each side of HW. In 20 years I have hardly found it an issue. I have had to wait a few times to get in & I have pushed through the silt when in a hurry. Because I tend to sail longer distances, rather than locally it really is just a matter of timing arrival & departure.
Many say that one needs a shallow draft on the east coast. But so many with bilge keel still end up making sure that they have over a metre below the keel. Running aground with a fin- which I have done very many times in 50 years- is much easier to get off than with a bilge keel. I have only been stuck twice in that time. Inspite of running hard on, with the kite up, at 8kts on a falling tide, I still got off by the skin of my teeth.
As for wheel steering, in older designs the wheel just ruins cockpit space & gives less feel on the helm.
If you are likely to sail short handed, then consider a boat with self tacking jib.
Obviously I am biased, but my 2003 Hanse 311 has decent headroom. Not quite enough for my 6ft 6ins. Berths are long as well, which must be considered.
But nothing wrong with most of the big name production boats from 2000 onwards. Just depends on the depth of your pocket.

Totally agree with te bilge keel comments. My previous boat was na 1.8m draft fin keel, clipped the mud a couple of times, but never felt especially restricted by the draft, just plan accordingly.

Personally though, i'd rather have a wheel than a tiller.

 

[shanemax]

Cannot agree with the bilge keel comments. I have friends with fin keel and long keel boats. They are frightened to come out of the channel. They do not like anchoring overnight incase they drag. They dare not cut any corners even when there is adequate tide. If the only reason you buy a boat is to go a little faster buy a jet ski. I love ditch crawling, going places no one else can. How many boat owners on here have been in to manningtree, one of the best and friendliest clubs on the east coast with Broadside at £2.50 a pint. Manningtree has a tesco express, wonderful pubs , a chinese takeaway, fish and chip shop and a safe pontoon you dry out on. To be rude you can shove your extra knot, my bilge keeler leaps along at 5 knots with both sails up and has taken me all over the east coast.. I do not want to be tied going from one deep water marina to the next.

 

[MikeBz]

Don’t take people’s dismissal of bilge keels at face value. No doubt a fin keeler will sail better than a bilge keeler but boats are about a whole range of compromises. If you want to explore and make full use of the myriad of rivers and creeks in our area then a fin keel won’t allow you to do that, however well it sails. On the other hand if you want to make longer passages and cross the North Sea regularly then a well-performing fin keeler would be a much better choice.

 

[Tranona]

Wearing flak jacket ..... Bav's - be careful as original were excellent - then mass production created a dog ... near bankruptcy caused a rethink and remodelling ... as Bavaria themselves publicly stated after being sued by USA Dealers - now job is to regain quality of build ....

The above is public fact ... and I am not just saying.

Personally ? If you can pay for a Bav - get a Jeanneau instead.

That is just absolute nonsense. The problems in the US were to do with 2015 onward boats, NOT the sort of early 2000s the OP will be looking at - and it was more about the commercial deal where the dealer took on responsibility for warranty and was then not able to fulfill that responsibility.
As you know I had 2, both bought new and gave excellent service. Suggest you look here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html for some real owners' experiences

 

[Tranona]

Very few boats under 35ft have wheel steering as a tiller is more responsive and less likely to go wrong.

That is not true for the sort of boats the OP is looking at - in fact the opposite. Very few cruising boats from the late 90s onwards over 30' have tillers, and even when they were optional most buyers chose wheels.

 

[Refueler]

That is just absolute nonsense. The problems in the US were to do with 2015 onward boats, NOT the sort of early 2000s the OP will be looking at - and it was more about the commercial deal where the dealer took on responsibility for warranty and was then not able to fulfill that responsibility.
As you know I had 2, both bought new and gave excellent service. Suggest you look here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html for some real owners' experiences

Sorry T - but your reply leaves out a whole world of woe that USA dealers were pushed into.

Their liability was supposedly covered by a 2% warranty clause .... which given the failings of the boats - was so far short of reality - they took the matter to court. Bav's answer - from the new investors was that they would revert back to a quality build ... but still left the dealers holding the stinking can.
Dealers had agreed because a 2% factor was a common value factor and usually did not lead to dealers out of pocket.

As to reading Bav owners site ... are you kidding ? That's like reading BMW boy racers forums !!

Bav when it was a small concern - was an excellent build. Once the Investment group identified and funded the production lines - the build quality was on a downward curve - eventually pushing them to verge of bankruptcy. Without the investment made by new 'blood' Bav would be history. It is to the credit of the new guys that Bav is recovering well.

Bav is not only one that suffered from such ... many other well known brands followed suit .... but thats another story.

I'll leave you with a titbit - that I personally know occurred not once but actually caused a number of boats to be 'quietly checked out' .....

Guy bought New Bav .... had strange water leak ... could not find where it was getting in ... but every day there it was again. Finally in desperation - boat was lifted to check all surfaces ...
Reason ? Fitting screw too long had penetrated hull below waterline and caused a weeping leak when hull flexed. Dealer was 'gobsmacked' and was adamant - it was not done by his guys ... that boat was delivered in that condition.
Checking of other boats - revealed a number of others with same problem. It was not an isolated incident.
Take my word for it - I have no reason to fabricate the story - but the incident was agreed to be kept 'quiet' ... something that I dislike.

I've surveyed a number of Bavs - and the one item that comes up so often - the smell !! Bavs were delivered based on a time slot schedule - similar to cars. But unlike cars - some Bavs were going out 'post green' .. that is still with 'green GRP' causing that excessive resin stink - that on a number of Bav's I checked out - caused not only myself - but prospective owners nauseous headaches .....

Get a Jeanneau !!