P4Paul
Active member
was it Loic Blanken?
2013 Bavaria 35 Sport HT
- Thread starter jaws
- Start date
A_8
Active member
Understanding basic structure and strength requirements should not be a random effort these days and I would think Bavaria have been around long enough to know how it works so I find it unlikely that it is an inbuilt design flaw, if it was many more boats would have the same problem. It could also be a one off build execution/manufacturing problem depending on the build processes etc which would then mean that the boat was fine until it was not and if that happened during your 10h of use you should know how and when the hull was damaged which potentially helps to build your case.
In general statements like "probably weakened" from a surveyor seems a bit off as its key to how you proceed. The way I see it there are 3 possibilities, either the boat has a design flaw, was poorly assembled/manufactured or it was abused/misused.
If it was me I would dig in and get a clear picture why, how and when the damage happened and if indeed a design or manufacturing issue I would go all in wrt to the builder but if it was a handling/transport issue I would change my strategy and be grateful for any help offered by the builder.
BruceK
Well-known member
Here is a link to 98 photographs that tell a much bigger story.
http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/library/Bavaria?sort=3&page=1
slideshow http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/slideshow/Bavaria
I'd have liked to post up a few, but it turns out there are too many, so I will leave that up to DOAN
DOAN, click on a photo, on the right you will see IMG, copy and paste the contents of the IMG box into the response here in the forum to attach the picture.
http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/library/Bavaria?sort=3&page=1
slideshow http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/slideshow/Bavaria
I'd have liked to post up a few, but it turns out there are too many, so I will leave that up to DOAN
DOAN, click on a photo, on the right you will see IMG, copy and paste the contents of the IMG box into the response here in the forum to attach the picture.
A_8
Active member
Ouch....even without all the cracks and leaks it does not look good at all. I have to say I would not have gone near a boat like that in the first place but just because it assembled and finished a bit questionable does not necessarily prove the hull is crap.
With or without a bad hull the boat has been exposed to a lot of stress/force and I would still try to find out how that happened as it is key too whatever the best course of action would be.
If the dealer was still in business you could take the "consumer" approach not understanding the details but as they are not I think you need to show that you really understand and can make a rock solid case for whatever is wrong so that not helping you has higher cost than giving you what you want.
Example, a court ruling that a Bavaria power boats have extremely weak hulls and not fit for purpose.....how much would that cost? Or transport experts "cant deliver a boat" messing up a delivery?
With or without a bad hull the boat has been exposed to a lot of stress/force and I would still try to find out how that happened as it is key too whatever the best course of action would be.
If the dealer was still in business you could take the "consumer" approach not understanding the details but as they are not I think you need to show that you really understand and can make a rock solid case for whatever is wrong so that not helping you has higher cost than giving you what you want.
Example, a court ruling that a Bavaria power boats have extremely weak hulls and not fit for purpose.....how much would that cost? Or transport experts "cant deliver a boat" messing up a delivery?
lionelz
Member
Have I missed something is this a new boat? That outdrive looks awful. And that's one he'll of a lot of cracks in the boat. Something has gone wrong for sure
Whitelighter
Active member
It's difficult to tell the location of all the pictures in the boat but the delamination of what I am guessing is the internal sub moulding from the hull should be fixable - that's one of the best things about grip.
I understand that you have lost confidence in the boat and want out, that's understandable but you have to somehow (and it's difficult) take emotion out of it for the time being and approach it with a business head.
If the supplying dealer us out of business (and I would check this carefully) then your ability to reject the boat may have been removed. Your focus should be recovering as much capital as possible. If Bavaria have offered to make the boat good I would give them that opportunity because a) it shows they accept there are faults and b) at least gives you a sound boat which if all else fails you can sell and walk away.
Can you clarify one thing - what date was the boat built and what date did you accept delivery?
I understand that you have lost confidence in the boat and want out, that's understandable but you have to somehow (and it's difficult) take emotion out of it for the time being and approach it with a business head.
If the supplying dealer us out of business (and I would check this carefully) then your ability to reject the boat may have been removed. Your focus should be recovering as much capital as possible. If Bavaria have offered to make the boat good I would give them that opportunity because a) it shows they accept there are faults and b) at least gives you a sound boat which if all else fails you can sell and walk away.
Can you clarify one thing - what date was the boat built and what date did you accept delivery?
Whitelighter
Active member
So the delivery to you was August 17th. I'm not clear on EU law (I think it differed from uk law) but there does seem to be a general limit at 6 months when dealing with faulty goods, so you are well inside that.
What have Bavaria themselves said?
Colvic Watson
Well-known member
I really respect Bavaria's ability to produce high quality boats day after day. But occasionally things go wrong at the very best builders and Bavaria are surely not immune from that possibility? If they are offering to repair the boat for free then surely that's an admission on their part that the boat has significant manufacturing defects?
Oscar24
Active member
I'm amazed how bad the stern drive is in the picture taken in October!
And from a boat only a few months old ???
Something has gone very wrong for that much damage in such a short period of time.
Best of luck DOAN, not a nice introduction to boating.
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Whitelighter
Active member
If the boat is repaired to factory standard with no trace then I agree with them, there is no loss in value. In fact you are yourself hurting the value of your boat by making it identifiable across the Internet. I would be careful to remove any identifying marks (though you still can identify a boat by equipment installation etc)
You could reasonably claim compensation for loss of use I shake t for the period it is out of commission.
I'd think very carefully about court action, it will cost a lot and here Bavarians pockets are surely deeper than yours.
You could reasonably claim compensation for loss of use I shake t for the period it is out of commission.
I'd think very carefully about court action, it will cost a lot and here Bavarians pockets are surely deeper than yours.
oGaryo
Active member
Wow, that looks terrible scrolling through the photos, I too would lose all confidence in accepting a repair and would also want to wash my hands of a boat in this condition.. maybe one for a certain forumite to offer his opinion on the legal recourse available to achieve a full refund?
Doan, I sincerely hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction, especially considering it is your first purchase, you must be devastated having your dream fall apart like this
Doan, I sincerely hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction, especially considering it is your first purchase, you must be devastated having your dream fall apart like this
jrudge
Well-known member
The boat has issues. The manufacturer has offered to resolve it.
Would I be happy no. Is this the very best outcome. Yes.
You go to court. In 18 month and umpteen Euro later the manufacturer will say " well we offered and he declined, but this was just good will as his contract is with the dealer. No case against us, dismiss please". Judge looks at non existent contract and agrees.
Alternatively judge awards you money. Lets say the boat repair is E50k. This is bad news as now someone other then the factory will repair it which is a problem when you sell.
Take the deal on offer. I appreciate why you are mad, but get it done now and it will be ready for the 2016 season.
Rejecting it? No idea but the dealer has gone bust and you will have time and money via court.
Whats on offer is the best of a bad bunch.
Would I be happy no. Is this the very best outcome. Yes.
You go to court. In 18 month and umpteen Euro later the manufacturer will say " well we offered and he declined, but this was just good will as his contract is with the dealer. No case against us, dismiss please". Judge looks at non existent contract and agrees.
Alternatively judge awards you money. Lets say the boat repair is E50k. This is bad news as now someone other then the factory will repair it which is a problem when you sell.
Take the deal on offer. I appreciate why you are mad, but get it done now and it will be ready for the 2016 season.
Rejecting it? No idea but the dealer has gone bust and you will have time and money via court.
Whats on offer is the best of a bad bunch.
Portofino
Well-known member
Judge will look at the expert evidence most of which according to DOAN has been agreed and signed off by Bav .
It's not who,s going to fund the repair ,Bav seemingly have agreed .
It's wether it's fit for purpose under some sale of goods type of act or similar ( need JFM here ) or was ever demed bulit propertly .These are serious defects if factory repaired --- that may comprise the boat arguably and put the claimant in a worse position , in every aspect ,build Q , residual , lack of use etc.
Best thing for Bav to do is refund .
Cheap option for Bav is the claimant to go ahead with the repairs -assume subject to indipendant post survey ? -that could be a bun fight as well ,Bav say it's fixed -a Modern day Dave Pascoe says its not fixed .
But then what after another 10 or 20 hours ? Is more faults appear -how many "friendly. " ex gratis bites of the free repair cherry will Bav allow DOAN .
Taking the legal route will damage public ally Bav reputation -which will lose sales and dent reputation .
Of course they will initially resist and hope DOAN accepts there offer .
Refunding will cost the sale price + they will have process the boat ( break it up for spares or repair and sell on -risk another debarcle ?? )
If I was DOAN is would push for a full refund + compensation , through the courts
Bav will settle on the court room steps -not wanting a public drubbing .
DOAN actually in a better place with the dealer gone bust ,because the dealer route if he still was active could waste time and money in court as the judgement may have wiped him out .
Bav can stand a full refund -.they are a bigger fish to fry over this in public
All in my opinion
It's not who,s going to fund the repair ,Bav seemingly have agreed .
It's wether it's fit for purpose under some sale of goods type of act or similar ( need JFM here ) or was ever demed bulit propertly .These are serious defects if factory repaired --- that may comprise the boat arguably and put the claimant in a worse position , in every aspect ,build Q , residual , lack of use etc.
Best thing for Bav to do is refund .
Cheap option for Bav is the claimant to go ahead with the repairs -assume subject to indipendant post survey ? -that could be a bun fight as well ,Bav say it's fixed -a Modern day Dave Pascoe says its not fixed .
But then what after another 10 or 20 hours ? Is more faults appear -how many "friendly. " ex gratis bites of the free repair cherry will Bav allow DOAN .
Taking the legal route will damage public ally Bav reputation -which will lose sales and dent reputation .
Of course they will initially resist and hope DOAN accepts there offer .
Refunding will cost the sale price + they will have process the boat ( break it up for spares or repair and sell on -risk another debarcle ?? )
If I was DOAN is would push for a full refund + compensation , through the courts
Bav will settle on the court room steps -not wanting a public drubbing .
DOAN actually in a better place with the dealer gone bust ,because the dealer route if he still was active could waste time and money in court as the judgement may have wiped him out .
Bav can stand a full refund -.they are a bigger fish to fry over this in public
All in my opinion
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Whitelighter
Active member
The problem is, and I caution that I am speaking from a UK perspective though EU law is often very similar if not identical, is that from a consumer law point of view the contract and therefore the liability rests with the supplying dealer. You also often find that an element of dealer margin also supports the warranty.
So it is entirely possible that Bavaria have no requirement to make good or refund - that may be the responsibility if the dealer and the dealer only.
That said from a brand protection point of view Bavaria may wish to pay for repairs even though they are not responsible to keep a customer happy and protect their image. Rejecting that offer and taking them to court where they actually have no legal responsibility may mean Doan gets a legal bill and still has a wrecked boat
So it is entirely possible that Bavaria have no requirement to make good or refund - that may be the responsibility if the dealer and the dealer only.
That said from a brand protection point of view Bavaria may wish to pay for repairs even though they are not responsible to keep a customer happy and protect their image. Rejecting that offer and taking them to court where they actually have no legal responsibility may mean Doan gets a legal bill and still has a wrecked boat
Portofino
Well-known member
I suspect there's distinction between a warranty item like a bust anchor winch or leaky window ,that the dealer as you infer is reasonably able to locally fix, and a larger number of manufactoring defects ( expertly proven and admitted by the builder ) That the dealer is unable to fix .
There fore the buck stops at the builder -Bav
They can,t hide behind a sale contract for a defective product from a dealer and punter -accepting no liability
Judge will try to put the claimant back into his original position -
Refund Only does this -plus possible damages -Bav will have to take that risk along with public drubbing .
Car builders -manufacturers are taken to court hence stickers on 4x4" s advising cornering too fast = tips up .
Turn the front seat air bag off I'd kiddie seat fitted etc .
If your kids head end up on the parcel shelf after a smash it not the dealer you take to court .
There fore the buck stops at the builder -Bav
They can,t hide behind a sale contract for a defective product from a dealer and punter -accepting no liability
Judge will try to put the claimant back into his original position -
Refund Only does this -plus possible damages -Bav will have to take that risk along with public drubbing .
Car builders -manufacturers are taken to court hence stickers on 4x4" s advising cornering too fast = tips up .
Turn the front seat air bag off I'd kiddie seat fitted etc .
If your kids head end up on the parcel shelf after a smash it not the dealer you take to court .
Whitelighter
Active member
Car manufacturers are taken to court but rarely and only then in class action suits.
With 99% of faults and issues the buck stops with the dealer. I know this because I spent 10 years working for and running dealerships. Again mine is a UK centric view but EU law is broadly aligned.
Bavaria have offered a resolution - to make the boat right. Again in the uk before October 1st this year dealers had the right to attempt a repair before a refund. That has changed now and you can demand a refund but only in the first 30 days. After that you must give the supplier (note this is dealer not manufacturer) the opportunity to repair and this must be done with in 6 months of purchase. I would permit Bavaria to repair the boat and go from there. Running to court may work but it could also end up being very expensive, and costs are not always awarded in civil cases.
Again I speak from my UK experience which may differ to that of France or Spain
With 99% of faults and issues the buck stops with the dealer. I know this because I spent 10 years working for and running dealerships. Again mine is a UK centric view but EU law is broadly aligned.
Bavaria have offered a resolution - to make the boat right. Again in the uk before October 1st this year dealers had the right to attempt a repair before a refund. That has changed now and you can demand a refund but only in the first 30 days. After that you must give the supplier (note this is dealer not manufacturer) the opportunity to repair and this must be done with in 6 months of purchase. I would permit Bavaria to repair the boat and go from there. Running to court may work but it could also end up being very expensive, and costs are not always awarded in civil cases.
Again I speak from my UK experience which may differ to that of France or Spain
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jrudge
Well-known member
My web research found exactly as above so it saved the typing. The only manufacturer obligation is the warranty and this is "as written" i the warranty book - which will say repair I suspect ( or repair / replace at its discretion). I doubt it says refund.
Tread carefully. Get the advice of a spanish lawyer not a boat forum. I stand by my position earlier. Bavaria may not want the publicity, but remember the Azimut thread of a while ago? Azi did not roll over. Ideal? Far from it, but its probably the best way forward.
Tread carefully. Get the advice of a spanish lawyer not a boat forum. I stand by my position earlier. Bavaria may not want the publicity, but remember the Azimut thread of a while ago? Azi did not roll over. Ideal? Far from it, but its probably the best way forward.
Tranona
Well-known member
Could not agree more based on what we have seen. No doubt the boat is defective, but Bavaria have admitted that. So the only thing in dispute is the remedy. The owner wants his money back and Bavaria have offered to bring the boat back to satisfactory condition.
The danger with pursuing for return of money, let alone any any compensation is that the chances of wining are probably small. It will be come a contest of "experts" - lawyers and other advisers and the party with the best will win - although the only real winners will be the "experts". It is their interests, not necessarily the client's to prolong the proceedings. Downside for the OP is that he loses and Bavaria withdraw their offer or at best he has a long period without boat or the money. I watched my brother do this with Audi and its dealer over a defective A8 which sat for 3 years depreciating while they argued and he ended up with a similar deal to what was offered in the first place. 3 year's loss of use and £20k loss of value.
The reality is that Bavaria have only to supply a boat in satisfactory condition. They should have no difficulty in showing that the design meets all the requirements for the claimed use, that it is well proven, and that once repaired by them is equal to the original requirement. They will probably agree to an independent inspection of the repaired boat as well.
Appreciate the OP believes that he has lost confidence in the boat, but he did not buy confidence, he bought a boat to a defined spec and this is what he is being offered.
Portofino
Well-known member
Guys , I cannot see what good this would do to Bav , to defeat a refund through the courts , having admitted it a defective boat.
And we have the Internet
If I was in a dicision making role at Bav I would want this" tidied up " ASAP -sweep under the carpet .
Think of that journalist that's been hassling Sep Blater for the past 5 years -over corruption at FIFA
And we have the Internet
If I was in a dicision making role at Bav I would want this" tidied up " ASAP -sweep under the carpet .
Think of that journalist that's been hassling Sep Blater for the past 5 years -over corruption at FIFA
BruceK
Well-known member
Slightly off topic but what would be the likely outcome of the boat? It couldn't readily be sold as "shop soiled" obviously so it would need to be repaired and sold on at a significant loss and potentially still at cost of reputation. It also represents a significant investment that cannot be scrapped. Either way it's a double bill to the manufacturer and I cannot see them rolling over easily or willingly. I'm with jrudge in that albeit a bitter pill Id be inclined to accept repairs but would add in compensation as a mutually beneficial compromise. An all out fight is going to create a loser and it doesn't have to be this way.
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