proplems with new nanni deisel

[benlui]

Have you guys and comments on this?
Nanni diesel 21hp 11 months old, 140hrs running time

When i went to start the engine last week, i got a "chug" like noise and it wouldn’t turn over. It ss like it was jammed or something.
However, after about 30min it did start, and coolant came out the top then the oil warning light and alarm went on and wouldn’t go off so i shut it off to check for oil. I was surprised to see there was plenty of oil so why the oil warning? Started it again, and same thing and alarms going off. Also seemed down on compression.
Had the dealer look at it today after a week of phone calls and messages, and he informed me it isn’t good that the oil looks to have a kind of a gray colour in it and that there’s a possibility that the gasket may be gone.
Bad news, is that they must take a sample of the oil and send it somewhere for testing which will take 10 - 14 working days to return. So this is 2 weeks before i even have a definitive answer not alone the problem fixed. I’m completely p***** off with this slow service with a brand new engine still under warranty. Its only got 140hrs, and ive never opened the engine myself to do anything, all servicing and maintenance has been carried out by the supplier as recommended at hige costs since new last season. What do you guys think this sounds like? And, have i any argument with regards to time frame for resolving same? I know this will go on for weeks and weeks now and am not happy given the time of year. I was due to be in france at the moment, good job i didn’t as I would be down there with these issues.
Since new even in warm weather ive always had problems starting it, and would have to rev it very high for a min or so otherwise it would cut out. I had explained this to them on several occasions but was told this was normal?

Any advise/help much appreciated thanks

 

[RivalRedwing]

From the jamming at the start I wonder if some water has got into the cylinders. The pressure buildup as the water compressed might have stuffed the head gasket + some water may have got past the rings into the sump. Have you got anti-siphons fitted? is your exhaust outlet above the water line? The reason I ask is that a colleague had an engine 'professionally' fitted by a yard and they omitted the anti-siphon - resulting in water getting into the cylinders. My friend was lucky, no damage done.
Having said all the above, I hope this isn't the case and that there is a simpler solution.

 

[benlui]

The dealer has found water he said. He didnt say where, but i asume in the cylinders. He asked if i had ever topped up with water, and suggested i may have done so in the wrong place? However, i never topped anything up, they did it themselves. As fo anti siphons, i dont know what they are and weather or not mine has any. Im very ignorent re kwnollege of engines so forgive me.
Its the time frame is annoying me more than anything, and im waiting for the "oh because you did that" they will try to void my warranty!

 

[Twister_Ken]

"Im very ignorent re kwnollege of engines so forgive me. "

I'd suggest you book yourself on a basic diesel course soonest. Two reasons. One - if the beast breaks down at sea, you can't call an engineer to sort it for you - you're on your own. Two - if you learn to do your own servicing at least you can be sure it's been properly done, which you can't always rely on marine engineers to do. They'll send you a bill, but have they done the job?

By and large marine diesels are pretty basic lumps of engineering and there's not too much to learn, or too many tools to acquire.

 

[algernon]

Hi First grey oil that looks a bit like salad cream is a sign of water in the oil, usually either due to severe condensation problems, someone putting water in the wrong hole or a blown gasket, however you say when you tried to start it the engine locked up, "hydraulicked", as the experts say, this may have pushed water into the oil, if you then ran it for a while that may have made your saladcream! Lack of compression sounds like possibly rusty bores due to water sitting in them so suggest you have a good look at the exhaust system, I probably wouldnt know an anti-siphon if it hit me in the face but can water get back up the pipe to the engine?
Personally I would want to look inside the bores and would want to see the entire engine stripped and rebuilt before trusting it at sea, different story in a car as if it stops you call the AA but at sea-------
Time span - test oil, then remove engine, strip and rebuild, refit---- sounds like up to 2months if they are slow!
Sorry mate, hope you are lucky and they get their act together for you.
Chris

 

[benlui]

Hi Twister_ken
I have been sailing only for over 2 years now, and have since had all relevant RYA courses completed along with basic running and maintenance of engine courses. So I have been flat out. But I do have some knowledge, as much as can be expected for someone non technical minded in this way. When i stated that my knowledge is poor, i mean I’m not an expert on them, so perhaps my post was misleading. I know as much about them now, as i will ever know, which is the basics. Engines are not my forte. If i were retired, or had some spare time, im sure i could improve my skills however, im not technically minded in that way and don’t have a lot of spare time due to my profession. So unfortunately there are some of us that need to rely on engineers to do the job weather we like it or not. I, and many others am not as fortunate as you perhaps are in this area. Just because i don’t know a pile about my engine, doesn’t mean i cant go to sea like I have done so. I rely on my sails like i have done so in the past when i can’t on my engine.
There is also the issue re servicing, and having a 3 year warranty, I am told that if I carry out this task myself that the warranty is void. Crap really.

My exhaust is above water line, however it does go below quiet a lot so i dont know if this is a factor or not......
Are these problems common on a well looked after new engine? And, shouldnt the manufacturer reward me in some way for all the hassle and loss of my boat for so long? I find this outrages really but what can i do only be thankful it will be covered under warranty.

 

[Pye_End]

[ QUOTE ]
My exhaust is above water line, however it does go below quiet a lot so i dont know if this is a factor or not......
Are these problems common on a well looked after new engine? And, shouldnt the manufacturer reward me in some way for all the hassle and loss of my boat for so long? I find this outrages really but what can i do only be thankful it will be covered under warranty.

[/ QUOTE ]

The anti-siphon on the exhaust may well be the key as others have said. If it is not there, it may be an installation issue rather than an engine warranty issue.

Worth looking through the manual and seeing what it advises for the exhaust installation.

 

[benlui]

Ok, its a very good point then and i will mention it to the engineer. dough the dealer did install the engine also as well as supply it too so at least thats a good sign. thanks

 

[Bilgediver]

It was apparent from your second line what the [problem was so I d be carefull the installer isn t trying to hide behind gobbldy gook and wheezzly words.

Mind you the puzzle is why did this happen after 11 months????

What has happened is that while your engine was stopped water was able to get into the exhaust elbow and then back flow into one or more of the cylinders. and sump. Hence high oil level floating on water.

You have tried to start the engine without realising the reason for the high oil level and at least one cylinder became hydraulically locked and this lifted the head stretched the studs and wrecked the gasket. however you ran the engine and as the oil was floating on water in the sump then the oil pump was feeding water to the bearings.

You need to investigate why the water got into the engine as it could be poor installation.

There should be a water trap in the exhaust line of capacity to absorb the volume of water in the exchaust pipe and there should be an anti syphon loop in the sea water cooling system before it enters the exhaust mixing elbow.

If your boat was a biggish boat and you replaced a Volvo MD2 or MD 11 etc then you also might have benefited from a high rise exhaust elbow as the Nanni and Betas are lower than the Volvo so can t always just be popped in without consideration of water flooding problems that didn t exist with the higher older engines.

What might be happening is that no anti syphon loop exists in the sea water line and that water can leak through the pump when the engine is stopped and flow through to the exhaust.

Only you can confirm this however if an installer did not address this problem then he has some serious questions to answer.

Does the cooling systen rise up to a plastic U bend before returning down to the engine. This may be between the pump and engine or between the engine and exhaust.

From the noises you are looking at a complete strip down as the crankshaft and all bearings are probably damaged .

I would suggest any other Nanni or Beta owners reading this check that their installations give adequate protection without resorting to luck or having to shut of the sea cock when stopped.

 

[alahol2]

Here's what a syphon break looks like.

The water exits the heat exchanger on the right of the picture. Flows up the pipe to the syphon break at the top then down the left hand pipe to where it is injected into the exhaust elbow. Without the syphon break, water can syphon up through the heat exhanger and into the exhaust pipe. Once the exhaust pipe is full of water it continues to backfill into the engine via the exhaust valves.
I'd have a look at your engine and see if one's fitted, if not then it sounds like the installer made a grave mistake.
Sorry about the size of the photo /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[benlui]

Ok thankyou very much for the picture that has made things simple for me. Yes I have on of those which was installed with the engine. It is visible above my galley sink for all the world to see.
Bilgediver, you sound like you know what you are talking about and thanks for the very informative reply. But it seems I have the piece as in the pic above by alahol.
So i its not this, im still at a loss. But i guess I will have to wait for the all famous "lab results" grrrrr

 

[MrCramp]

I think the dealer is giving you the run-a-round. I would have thought a oil test could be turned around in a day, two at the most. If the dealer has supplied, installed and serviced the engine and you have done nothing then the dealer must be responsible. I would start by asking for the engine to be removed immediately and replaced FOC.

I would insist that an Nanni (the engine builder) engineer inspects your engine within the week to give you a view, independant of the dealer. If you don't get stuck into this quickly you will loose all this seasons use of your boat.

You have got a major problem and it is not going to get resolved easily as the dealer (who I beleive to be at fault) will want to dodge the significant coat of putting your engine into good working order. It is unlikely that your engine can ever be refurbished to leave it in the condition a one year old engine should be in.

 

[Tranona]

Having the valve is good. However they are not foolproof. There are two types, one with an internal valve tht opens when you stop the engine to break the syphon. They need cleaning from time to time, but if less than a year old should be OK. The other type has a bleed tube which has a constant small stream of water flowing, either overboard through a skin fitting or into a selfdraining cockpit. These have nothing to stick.

You should also have a water trap in the exhaust, usually somewhere around the gearbox - a large barrel shaped object. Have a look at the Vetus catalogue pages 168/9 which has schematics of exhaust sytems. Yours may not be identical, but the principles are normal practice on new installations. www.vetus.co.uk

 

[RivalRedwing]

if you have trouble finding a local engineer then a local surveyor may be at least able to offer a view as to the sutability of the cooling & exhaust pipework configuration in and out of the engine

 

[Bilgediver]

sound like you know what you are talking about and thanks for the very informative reply. But it seems I have the piece as in the pic above by alahol.


If you have the syphon break then the next question is ... HAs the syphon break valve stuck c;losed. This is at the nipple at the top. If this sticks closed it may be possible for water to syphon through. With the engine stopped casn you blow in through the hole in the syphon break.

If this is clear then the water possibly backflowed from the exhaust.

You need a waterlock in the exhaust that is big enough to take the volume of water that is traspped in the exhaust when the engine stops...Do you think your trasp is big enough. The longer the run of exhaust pipe from the engine to the stern then the bigger the water trap needs to be.

The original water had to come from the syphon or the exhaust so have to check both. After that when the gasket went then fresh water joined the sea water in the sump.

Yes experienced in Doxfords,Sulzers and B and W on cargo ships and CAterpillar and Alco's on oil rigs not forgetting the Ruston AO /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif But more recently small boat engines
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[algernon]

Just another quick thought, a major problem on old tractors was water entering through the air intake, does your engine suck from inside the engine room or from an external vent? If external could wind have blown rain in? possibly a problem if moored on a pontoon where wind can blow from any direction!
best of luck
chris /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Twister_Ken]

Benlui,

If you've done the RYA engine course, you're equipped to do your own servicing and make the sort of repairs that are possible at sea. Heavy-duty maintenance and repairs are a different matter and best left for engineers.

As long as you can do stuff like change oil and fuel filters, remove and refill with oil, replace drive belts, change waterpump impellors, check electrical supply to the starter motor and from the alternator, check cooling system, replace and tension drive belts, bleed fuel supply line, you'll be able to cope with regular servicing, as well as running repairs for minor problems.

 

[misterg]

Commiserations /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Sounds like water has got into one of the cylinders causing a hydraulic 'lock' when you tried to start it (engine 'jammed'). I would guess that this has taken out the head gasket which eventually allowed the water to leak away and so you could turn the engine over. This in itself could have bent the con-rod on that cylinder, so the piston height / squish clearance would need to be checked at the very least.

Sounds like you've now got pressure from the cylinder(s) entering your cooling water galleries past the failed gasket which will make the engine 'boil over' (coolant came out of the top), the engine will be down on compression, and this could also allow coolant to drain into the sump (emulsified oil). When you say 'plenty of oil', was the oil level above normal? It so, there was probably water in the sump that the oil was floating on.

The low oil pressure could be due to pressure from the cylinder(s) entering the oil galleries and preventing the oil pump priming; a leak from an internal oil gallery (possibly past a failed head gasket - I don't know if this engine has an internal feed to the head) that stops oil pressure building up, or maybe water in the oil pump.

[ QUOTE ]
... ive always had problems starting it....

[/ QUOTE ]

Has this involved lengthy periods of cranking? If the cooling water seacock is open during this, the engine pumps water into the exhaust which isn't cleared by the normal exhaust gasses (because the engine isn't running). Eventually this can fill up the exhaust leading to water flowing back into the engine, and the tale of woe above. (The advice generally given is to turn off the cooling water seacock if the engine doesn't start fairy quiclky, and turn it on again once the engine starts).

It's also possible that the engine has had a leaking head gasket from new (poor starting?) which has deteriorated enough to allow coolant to seep into the cylinder(s) while the engine has been standing. I suspect that one of the things the oil analysis will be used for is to determine whether there is any salt water in the oil to differentiate between these two scenarios.

Not good news, whatever.

Andy

 

[lw395]

If you have legal expenses insurance with your marine policy, ask them if they will pay for a solicitor.
You want a new engine, next week.

 

[chriscallender]

Who installed the engine? If there were any valid claim its a lot more likely to be a claim for incorrect installation than that the engine itself was faulty.

*If* the problem is lack of a syphon break then I would think that on a brand new engine the new raw water pump impeller might well stop any significant water getting in once the engine was stopped. But then the impeller gets a bit worn after 140 hours and enough water can leak past and syphon in... so that might explain the timescale.

If a professional engineer installed an engine below the water line without a syphon break then I'd think you've got a pretty good case that they screwed up.... but there are a lot of ifs in this post...