davidhand
New member
Re: You big-girls-blouses don\'t like holes in boats...??
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear.
You big-girls-blouses don't like holes in boats...??
- Thread starter Opinionated
- Start date
Peppermint
New member
I\'ve had two boats holed
both times the bows had nothing to do with it.
The Combined Services boats were built to have a watertight bulkhead between the forecabin and saloon. They noticed that occupants of the foreberths slept much sounder than the rest of the crew if the doors were closed.
both times the bows had nothing to do with it.
The Combined Services boats were built to have a watertight bulkhead between the forecabin and saloon. They noticed that occupants of the foreberths slept much sounder than the rest of the crew if the doors were closed.
jimmie
N/A
Re: I\'ve had two boats holed
Have you any qualifications to drive your boat? I sank mine once but I took lessons and have'nt sank it since. Have you considered that option?
Have you any qualifications to drive your boat? I sank mine once but I took lessons and have'nt sank it since. Have you considered that option?
AndrewB
Well-known member
Don\'t count on it, Nicho, do you ...
... remember this?
"A Bavaria 38 hit the Bramble Bank in the Solent during a westerly force 4, gusting 5, and had its keel broken off ... The boat, On-y-va, also lost its mast, which fell over the side during the grounding and then went through the starboard side of the yacht's hull."
YM On Watch, Sept 2001, page 7.
On the Bramble Bank??? In a force 4???
Never mind the Kevlar, how's the life raft?
... remember this?
"A Bavaria 38 hit the Bramble Bank in the Solent during a westerly force 4, gusting 5, and had its keel broken off ... The boat, On-y-va, also lost its mast, which fell over the side during the grounding and then went through the starboard side of the yacht's hull."
YM On Watch, Sept 2001, page 7.
On the Bramble Bank??? In a force 4???
Never mind the Kevlar, how's the life raft?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Kim Holman
No.
If punctured there my Twister would fill up the space under the forepeak bunks, but there are several channels which would let water flow further back into the boat, plus non-watertight access hatches to the head and basin seacocks which would gush forth.
I sailed extensively on a mid 1970's S&S designed Nautor Swan and know that boat very well. In fact, the chain locker which is right forrard and below the w/l actually drains into the bilge. In those circumstances she too would go under (presuming we couldn't plug the gap)
No.
If punctured there my Twister would fill up the space under the forepeak bunks, but there are several channels which would let water flow further back into the boat, plus non-watertight access hatches to the head and basin seacocks which would gush forth.
I sailed extensively on a mid 1970's S&S designed Nautor Swan and know that boat very well. In fact, the chain locker which is right forrard and below the w/l actually drains into the bilge. In those circumstances she too would go under (presuming we couldn't plug the gap)
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: or or
or stick a closed umbrella through the hole, then open it.
or stick a closed umbrella through the hole, then open it.
G
Guest
Guest
What kind?
I hear modern mass-produced umbrellas (especially the plastic kind) are not strong enough for this.
An old fashioned gentlemans seagoing offshore heavy displacement handbuilt oak stemmed umbrella is required.
Otherwise, you'll surely sink.... and make an unacceptable amount of leeway while sinking.
;*)
I hear modern mass-produced umbrellas (especially the plastic kind) are not strong enough for this.
An old fashioned gentlemans seagoing offshore heavy displacement handbuilt oak stemmed umbrella is required.
Otherwise, you'll surely sink.... and make an unacceptable amount of leeway while sinking.
;*)
zefender
Active member
Re: xenophobic old duffers
Quite right Pathfinder. Maybe the owners of these old designs have retained ideas from the past too! Seriously though, even in close company, such comments can be offensive but to make them in an international open enivornment like the internet is plainly daft. A speedy retraction would be appropriate Opinionated...
Quite right Pathfinder. Maybe the owners of these old designs have retained ideas from the past too! Seriously though, even in close company, such comments can be offensive but to make them in an international open enivornment like the internet is plainly daft. A speedy retraction would be appropriate Opinionated...
halcyon
Well-known member
Re: Regret to announce
Sorry to hear it , I'd have a locker half full of water.
In the fore cabin there are two sealed lockers under the front birth as well, plus the stern lazerette is also sealed, as are the cockpit lockers.
Not sure if this was Offshore, or the previous owner for trans-atlantic cruising.
Brian
Sorry to hear it , I'd have a locker half full of water.
In the fore cabin there are two sealed lockers under the front birth as well, plus the stern lazerette is also sealed, as are the cockpit lockers.
Not sure if this was Offshore, or the previous owner for trans-atlantic cruising.
Brian
tome
New member
Re: Regret to announce
Same here
There's a bulkhead under my fwd bunks which would contain it and also one in the lazarette.
Same here
There's a bulkhead under my fwd bunks which would contain it and also one in the lazarette.
Opinionated
New member
Not airtight, but watertight.
I must have expressed myself badly again. This posting is not related to some bright idea of my own (I wish I could be that original).
Yacht designers of yesteryear, and some today, design the boat so that the internal compartment TOPS are above the waterline, making them like 'bins'. So, if the hull is compromised (thats DD for holed) so that the damage is leaking water into the hull, it may be contained in that compartment. The nominal level of the water in the bin will be at the same level as outside the boat. Now, if it is a covered compartment (NOT airtight) then the sloshing will largely be contained to that area, simplifying ad hoc repairs. Now visualise the whole hull from outside, and think about most of the inside like a lot of bins, each isolating water from the other.
On my own boat, the main cabin berths, with two lockers under each, are watertight bins, the usual two front berths have four watertight sail lockers under. Strangely enough, the chain locker drains to the bilge, but I have a v. deep bilge. At the back, one locker in the cockpit is a bin, to well above w/l, the other side is a sea-berth with watertight locker.
Remember, all this restriction comes without any more effort on the part of the builders than making the tops higher than w/l and otherwise watertight. This principle is even more easily implemented in the days of plastic mouldings, and is still observed in some modern designs. I would be interested in responses which identified which boats have and which have not (rather than simple scoffing replies).
On this thread, someone replied about a Jaguar, I think, which he left the log/echosounder out, ie. a hole in the bottom of the boat! The boat could sit on its mooring forever, unless the compartment leaked into the bilge as Twister Ken said happened on his boat, which surprises me as a friend has a Twister and those forrard sail-lockers under the bunks do NOT drain to the bilge.
This is a thread about good design in yachts, not about unsinkable boats. If you want that level of safety, buy an Etap, as so many have advised me, who have rather misunderstood the point of my post.
IMHO, of course.
I must have expressed myself badly again. This posting is not related to some bright idea of my own (I wish I could be that original).
Yacht designers of yesteryear, and some today, design the boat so that the internal compartment TOPS are above the waterline, making them like 'bins'. So, if the hull is compromised (thats DD for holed) so that the damage is leaking water into the hull, it may be contained in that compartment. The nominal level of the water in the bin will be at the same level as outside the boat. Now, if it is a covered compartment (NOT airtight) then the sloshing will largely be contained to that area, simplifying ad hoc repairs. Now visualise the whole hull from outside, and think about most of the inside like a lot of bins, each isolating water from the other.
On my own boat, the main cabin berths, with two lockers under each, are watertight bins, the usual two front berths have four watertight sail lockers under. Strangely enough, the chain locker drains to the bilge, but I have a v. deep bilge. At the back, one locker in the cockpit is a bin, to well above w/l, the other side is a sea-berth with watertight locker.
Remember, all this restriction comes without any more effort on the part of the builders than making the tops higher than w/l and otherwise watertight. This principle is even more easily implemented in the days of plastic mouldings, and is still observed in some modern designs. I would be interested in responses which identified which boats have and which have not (rather than simple scoffing replies).
On this thread, someone replied about a Jaguar, I think, which he left the log/echosounder out, ie. a hole in the bottom of the boat! The boat could sit on its mooring forever, unless the compartment leaked into the bilge as Twister Ken said happened on his boat, which surprises me as a friend has a Twister and those forrard sail-lockers under the bunks do NOT drain to the bilge.
This is a thread about good design in yachts, not about unsinkable boats. If you want that level of safety, buy an Etap, as so many have advised me, who have rather misunderstood the point of my post.
IMHO, of course.
Opinionated
New member
Re: You big-girls-blouses don\'t like holes in boats...??
Quite right. It is a offensive phrase, picked up from less sensitive days - I apologise unreservedly.
IMHO, of course.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Opinionated on 29/11/2002 10:38 (server time).</FONT></P>
Quite right. It is a offensive phrase, picked up from less sensitive days - I apologise unreservedly.
IMHO, of course.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Opinionated on 29/11/2002 10:38 (server time).</FONT></P>
vyv_cox
Well-known member
Re: Not airtight, but watertight.
Isn't this the theory that sunk the Titanic? Open topped compartments might keep a boat afloat if the loss of buoyancy does not compromise the height of the compartment wall. But the mass of the locker full of water can be considerable and it may be that locker walls would have to be very high to contain the water. And if two lockers are punctured, its 1912 all over again.
Never mind buying an Etap, the windows are too big and the forward accommodation is too cramped. Buy a Sadler.
Isn't this the theory that sunk the Titanic? Open topped compartments might keep a boat afloat if the loss of buoyancy does not compromise the height of the compartment wall. But the mass of the locker full of water can be considerable and it may be that locker walls would have to be very high to contain the water. And if two lockers are punctured, its 1912 all over again.
Never mind buying an Etap, the windows are too big and the forward accommodation is too cramped. Buy a Sadler.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: Not airtight, but watertight.
Bear in mind also that if you half fill the forecabin with water, the waterline will change pretty dramatically, so that what looks "contained' in a dry boat may no longer look so contained when the water line is a foot lower, and angled.
Also, on most boats I've sailed enough to 'know' it's common practice for compartments to drain back to the bilge, else you have a real problem draining and drying compartments. If undrained water lies in a compartment, that's a good recipe for rot starting.
The Swan I sailed for years even went to the extent of having a light gauge stainless chain rigged through all the compartments and attached to shock cord forwards, so that it could be pulled through the various limber holes in one move, to keep them clear.
The one exception on my boat is the underbunk battery compartment, which is glassed in all round - I would guess as much to contain acid in the event of a spill, as to exclude water in the event of a hole.
Bear in mind also that if you half fill the forecabin with water, the waterline will change pretty dramatically, so that what looks "contained' in a dry boat may no longer look so contained when the water line is a foot lower, and angled.
Also, on most boats I've sailed enough to 'know' it's common practice for compartments to drain back to the bilge, else you have a real problem draining and drying compartments. If undrained water lies in a compartment, that's a good recipe for rot starting.
The Swan I sailed for years even went to the extent of having a light gauge stainless chain rigged through all the compartments and attached to shock cord forwards, so that it could be pulled through the various limber holes in one move, to keep them clear.
The one exception on my boat is the underbunk battery compartment, which is glassed in all round - I would guess as much to contain acid in the event of a spill, as to exclude water in the event of a hole.
Opinionated
New member
Re: Not airtight, but watertight.
Of course it was the 'theory' that sank the Titanic.
As I said, if you want unsinkable buy an Etap.
Contrast having something which contains the inflow with having nothing! The point is that by containing the inflow, so that it can only get out into the main hull by sloshing, you win time to attend to the problem. If the locker is full of stuff, and lidded, you may get away with very little into the boat, especially if you have searoom to put the hole to windward, so further raising the rim of the bin.
Which Sadler is unsinkable, and why?
IMHO, of course.
Of course it was the 'theory' that sank the Titanic.
As I said, if you want unsinkable buy an Etap.
Contrast having something which contains the inflow with having nothing! The point is that by containing the inflow, so that it can only get out into the main hull by sloshing, you win time to attend to the problem. If the locker is full of stuff, and lidded, you may get away with very little into the boat, especially if you have searoom to put the hole to windward, so further raising the rim of the bin.
Which Sadler is unsinkable, and why?
IMHO, of course.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Not Knirps
Much as I enjoy saying the word 'Knirps' I do think their umbrellas would be insufficient.
I'm sure Pascall Atkey in Cowes could provide its RYS-pattern brolly, which is guaranteed for use on old gaffers by old buffers. The handle is oiled Burmese teak, the ribs are first-growth vine prunings from Chateau Lafite, and the cover is 11 oz waxed storm canvas, died a tasteful shade of Oxford blue. They may choose not to sell you one, of course, unless you are at least a Right Honourable.
Much as I enjoy saying the word 'Knirps' I do think their umbrellas would be insufficient.
I'm sure Pascall Atkey in Cowes could provide its RYS-pattern brolly, which is guaranteed for use on old gaffers by old buffers. The handle is oiled Burmese teak, the ribs are first-growth vine prunings from Chateau Lafite, and the cover is 11 oz waxed storm canvas, died a tasteful shade of Oxford blue. They may choose not to sell you one, of course, unless you are at least a Right Honourable.
jamesjermain
Active member
Re: You big-girls-blouses don\'t like holes in boats...??
I disagree with Opinionated's basic tenet
I don't think very many earlier boats had watertight compartments forward - even open topped ones. In my experience, except, possibly, for a small compartment right in the bows, which would be pretty useless in the event of a serious collision, most wooden boats, and most early grp boats, were actually quite proud of their limber holes through frames and bulkheads which let water drain into the deep central bilge from which it could be pumped. Watertight compartments were rightly regarded as pretty useless unless they were so big they seriouslty affected the practicality of the interior in terms of stowage, access etc.
If a wooden boat put a hole in the bow which was big enough to threaten rapid sinking, the chances are the planking would be sprung sufficiently far aft to make the sort of bow locker being talked of here ('a foot aft of the bow') pretty redundant.
JJ
I disagree with Opinionated's basic tenet
I don't think very many earlier boats had watertight compartments forward - even open topped ones. In my experience, except, possibly, for a small compartment right in the bows, which would be pretty useless in the event of a serious collision, most wooden boats, and most early grp boats, were actually quite proud of their limber holes through frames and bulkheads which let water drain into the deep central bilge from which it could be pumped. Watertight compartments were rightly regarded as pretty useless unless they were so big they seriouslty affected the practicality of the interior in terms of stowage, access etc.
If a wooden boat put a hole in the bow which was big enough to threaten rapid sinking, the chances are the planking would be sprung sufficiently far aft to make the sort of bow locker being talked of here ('a foot aft of the bow') pretty redundant.
JJ
jamesjermain
Active member
Unsinkable Sadlers.
Sadler 25/26, 29 (only just), 34 and Barracuda by virtue of double skin with foam between, plus foam decks. The latter can cause enormous problems in later life, particularly on the 34.
JJ
Sadler 25/26, 29 (only just), 34 and Barracuda by virtue of double skin with foam between, plus foam decks. The latter can cause enormous problems in later life, particularly on the 34.
JJ
jamesjermain
Active member
Try the Subrella. nm
.
JJ
.
JJ
JeremyF
New member
You are talking.....
......absolute b*****ks of course, but I'm delighted someone has joined to put some spark back into this forum. Keep up the non-PC views as well, and I speak as an Irishman.
<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>
......absolute b*****ks of course, but I'm delighted someone has joined to put some spark back into this forum. Keep up the non-PC views as well, and I speak as an Irishman.
<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>
