Worthless ICC?

[duncan99210]

As an overseas national, you can get a UK issued ICC on the back of an RYA qualification of DS or above provided you are resident in the UK. If you're not resident in the UK, you can't get a UK issued ICC, you'll have to get your own country to issue you one. The ICC is a very basic qualification, really aimed at countries which do not have a regulated sailing environment. It was brought in by the UN in an attempt to keep all nations happy by providing a piece of paper showing that a Skipper had reached a basic level of competence in boat handling.
The UK government has delegated the issuing of ICCs to a number of organisations (RYA and BSAC for example). These organisations are constrained by the rules imposed on them by the conditions of the UN ICC scheme and cannot issue an ICC unless you fulfil certain criteria. A full list of those nationals who can and cannot be issued with a UK ICC can be found here http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/icc/Pages/icc-no.aspx. No point in arguing with this policy, as the RYA didn't write it, they just administer it.
If you thought getting a RYA Coastal Skipper qualification would solve your problems the you simply didn't do the reasearch before you did the course.

 

[Cookie Jar]

I read that reply also. But if the RYA licence a training centre in Portugal and that centre allows Irish citizsens to attend courses who is protecting who? I can't get an ICC from the Irish Saililng Association (our national body) as it was not one of the ISA training centres, I can't get one from the Portuguese even though the school is there, and I can't get one form the RYA who licence the school in Portugal because I'm not resident in the UK. So, tough on all those Portuguese who want to get a qualification with a school in their own country. It really stinks if you ask me.

Oh... I could say a thing or two about that! I am Portuguese and I had to re-do my licenses!

"money" will set you free though... if and only if... you can register as a resident in a country that issues ICC's. Even if only temporarily.

Quite a few countries did not sign resolution 40, so there were no ICC's issued for citizens of those countries! Period.

But since I do not live in Portugal anymore but in a country that did sign resolution 40, I had to enroll in brand new license(s)! Not that I was chasing an ICC in the first place, but because Portuguese licenses do not contain a specific mention to inland waterways -nor can a Portuguese citizen complete CEVNI in Portugal, therefore, Portuguese licenses are not recognized for a direct equivalent, so it's... "play it again Sam". Enroll, pay up, practical exam, theoretical exam, done. (not quite done, because I did not spoke one word of Czech back then, so I also had to hire an official translator).

Until recreational boating is regulated just like professional one is, we will all continue to see such aberrations and a hand-full of us will get caught in the middle. Good luck to you!

My suggestion and according to what I know (could be wrong, although I have almost no doubt), your only chance at this is to "move" your residence to a country that does issue them. Even if only temporarily. You ARE free to move your residency to another EU country... and move it back again after you complete what you need to.

 

[Cookie Jar]

Why should a Portuguese want to be able to get a British ICC from a sailing school in Portugal?

Because CEVNI is not contemplated in Portuguese licenses... and the UN's resolution 40 made that CEVNI can only be obtained through the ICC, so no inland navigation for any citizens of any countries that did not sign the F%$#% thing!

...that's why

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I deplore the ignorance and thinly veiled xenophobia displayed in this thread. It's no wonder that ten years after it was initiated, the British electorate voted for insular self destruction.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Because CEVNI is not contemplated in Portuguese licenses... and the EU's resolution 40 made that CEVNI can only be obtained through the ICC, so no inland navigation for any citizens of any countries that did not sign the F%$#% thing!

...that's why

....the UN's Resolution 40 see above!!!!!

 

[Cookie Jar]

....the UN's Resolution 40 see above!!!!!

Yes... UN, not EU. Thank you for the correction.
But anyway, independently of "who's" brilliant idea it was, the fact remains that I had to re-do my license because -and only because- of this.

I held a basic skipper license for years, and later on I did a Coastal license (25NM)... all completely worthless if, like myself, you are emigrating from a non-resolution-40-country into one that is.

At a point of despair I even involved the "SOLVIT" center into this and after some emails back and forth, they replied saying (Direct quote now and solely related to my case):

"According to the research, there's no missaplication of the EU law. The main problem of the case is as folows: Directive 2005/45/CE deals with mutual recognition of seafarer´s certificates. However, the client asks for licence for inland waterway. The Directive does not deal with inland waterway certification.

The transfer from „sea“ into „inland“ licence may be done by resolution no. 40 of United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. However, this is completeley beyond the scope of SOLVIT, because this is not an are of the European law. Second, Portugal is not a signatory of this resolution. Further, there is no obligation for czech authority to provide examination in other language than Czech.

I understand it seems strange that sailor with „sea“ licence is not allowed to sail in inland waterway. But once again, the European law does not deal with this issue.“

Bottom line... Suck it up!

 

[Tranona]

I deplore the ignorance and thinly veiled xenophobia displayed in this thread. It's no wonder that ten years after it was initiated, the British electorate voted for insular self destruction.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion? The ICC and licencing in general is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, but the UN as you very well know. As for insularity nothing could be further from the truth. You can gain an RYA qualification in many countries other than UK and you do not have to be a citizen and the RYA is one of the few organisations that can issue an ICC to non citizens. How is this insular? and it will not change when we leave the EU. Just look at the problems of licencing that people on this forum who live in other states have with licencing and count your blessings that you live in this country.

 

[macd]

I deplore the ignorance and thinly veiled xenophobia displayed in this thread.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion?

Quite so, Tranona. There's nothing thinly-veiled about this from post #18: "Way I see it, your argument is with your own national authorities (or even with the IRA who did you the great disservice of making you non British)"

 

[bobgarrett]

How can you possibly come to that conclusion? The ICC and licencing in general is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, but the UN as you very well know. As for insularity nothing could be further from the truth. You can gain an RYA qualification in many countries other than UK and you do not have to be a citizen and the RYA is one of the few organisations that can issue an ICC to non citizens. How is this insular? and it will not change when we leave the EU. Just look at the problems of licencing that people on this forum who live in other states have with licencing and count your blessings that you live in this country.

Yes, but when will we vote to leave the UN? "Take back control" they will say!

 

[Biggles Wader]

Quite so, Tranona. There's nothing thinly-veiled about this from post #18: "Way I see it, your argument is with your own national authorities (or even with the IRA who did you the great disservice of making you non British)"

To be fair that was posted 13 years ago by Birdseye. Now he hasn't posted here for some years now. I don't know if he now has another identity or whatever but I don't think old stuff like that is relevant now.

 

[macd]

To be fair that was posted 13 years ago by Birdseye. Now he hasn't posted here for some years now. I don't know if he now has another identity or whatever but I don't think old stuff like that is relevant now.

He last posted about a year ago. Whilst I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's often folly to judge historic behaviour by the mores of today, 13 years is next-to-nothing. He wrote it, he owns it.

 

[GTom]

If you thought getting a RYA Coastal Skipper qualification would solve your problems the you simply didn't do the research before you did the course.

Right, I didn't read the fine print, as apparently quite a large number of other European folks. RYA certifications are marketed with the "world-wide-accepted", etc. label. Also, existence of a school in a certain country (e.g. Portugal) would strongly indicate at least to me, that the school and licenses issued by the school are recognized by the local government at least. Regardless the student's nationality or residence. Simply taking the very same course would allow one student to charter a boat next to the school but not the other.

It's nowhere communicated that boating licenses are like car driving licenses (obligatory and must be taken in your country of residence, full stop). True, they aren't everywhere, but certain countries, especially in the Med think so... Just another type of license: I am diving, got my certifications from PADI - no government authority in Croatia/Spain/Portugal/France/Greece, etc tell me, that I need a "license from my home country". And yes, an incompetent diver can cause a lethal accident just as an incompetent skipper. If they are after competence level, then they should define a list of certifications they accept from anyone. All the rest is protectionism.

It wouldn't be a big deal, if a DS level course could get me/others the same ICC certification as certain countries, doing a full second ladder to YM is a no-go.

 

[Biggles Wader]

He last posted about a year ago. Whilst I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's often folly to judge historic behaviour by the mores of today, 13 years is next-to-nothing. He wrote it, he owns it.

I don't disagree, just pointing out the background which makes it not worth having a row about.

 

[Cookie Jar]

If they are after competence level, then they should define a list of certifications they accept from anyone.

Croatia does
http://orvasyachting.com/documents/...d-for-operating-Croatian-boats-and-yachts.pdf

and I'm almost sure every other country as well...but it's a damn detective work and usually in the local language.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, but when will we vote to leave the UN? "Take back control" they will say!

Cannot understand why you are trying to make a political point out of this. If you know the background to the ICC you will understand that the UN (with a lot of lobbying from the RYA and CEVNI bent over backwards to draw up an acceptable specification for the ICC. The difficulty does not lie with the UN (or the UK) but with all the other countries who failed to sign up to the Resolution. The UK and particularly RYA has always supported anything that makes it easy for sailors and their yachts to travel around the world easily, perhaps because for a long time many of such voyagers were British.

 

[NickRobinson]

them that can do
them that cant teach

Those that can't teach, teach teachers.... (from an adult educator-)

 

[Tranona]

Right, I didn't read the fine print, as apparently quite a large number of other European folks. RYA certifications are marketed with the "world-wide-accepted", etc. label. Also, existence of a school in a certain country (e.g. Portugal) would strongly indicate at least to me, that the school and licenses issued by the school are recognized by the local government at least. Regardless the student's nationality or residence. Simply taking the very same course would allow one student to charter a boat next to the school but not the other.

It's nowhere communicated that boating licenses are like car driving licenses (obligatory and must be taken in your country of residence, full stop). True, they aren't everywhere, but certain countries, especially in the Med think so... Just another type of license: I am diving, got my certifications from PADI - no government authority in Croatia/Spain/Portugal/France/Greece, etc tell me, that I need a "license from my home country". And yes, an incompetent diver can cause a lethal accident just as an incompetent skipper. If they are after competence level, then they should define a list of certifications they accept from anyone. All the rest is protectionism.

It wouldn't be a big deal, if a DS level course could get me/others the same ICC certification as certain countries, doing a full second ladder to YM is a no-go.

The ICC is not an RYA qualification. Their claim of international acceptance is justifiable as their MCA qualifications are acceptable perhaps more than any others, particularly when they are used as a basis for a commercial qualification.

The issue of acceptance by other states is a different issue and that is what the ICC is intended to overcome. However as already pointed out many times most states have not signed up to it - even though some states such as Greece do recognise it, but not in a legal sense only as a pragmatic way of facilitating their tourist industry.

It is disingenuous to blame the RYA for this unsatisfactory sate of affairs. They are a national organisation looking after the interests of UK citizens (and in some cases resident non citizens). Any criticism should be directed at all the other states who fail to address the needs of their citizens.

 

[Tranona]

Croatia does
http://orvasyachting.com/documents/...d-for-operating-Croatian-boats-and-yachts.pdf

and I'm almost sure every other country as well...but it's a damn detective work and usually in the local language.

Croatia is unusual (possibly unique) in publishing a list of qualifications it accepts (complete with many errors!). it comes about because of a culture of control over its maritime sector for historical reasons. Unlikely that any other state would allocate money to do the same, as most can't even bother to sign up to Resolution 40, which for leisure boaters solves the problem.

 

[macd]

It is dis ingenuous to blame the RYA for this unsatisfactory sate of affairs. They are a national organisation looking after the interests of UN citizens (and in some cases resident non citizens). Any criticism should be directed at all the other states who fail to address the needs of their citizens.

I'm not the biggest fan of the RYA, but +1, cost and period of validity notwhithstanding. What other view can be justified?
(Presume you meant UK rather than UN citizens, Tranona.)

 

[Tranona]

I'm not the biggest fan of the RYA, but +1, cost and period of validity notwhithstanding. What other view can be justified?
(Presume you meant UK rather than UN citizens, Tranona.)

Thanks, have edited the mistake.