Worthless ICC?

[Guest]

Why should a Portuguese want to be able to get a British ICC from a sailing school in Portugal? Do you think that it is terrible if we British can't get a Portuguese national licence from a school in Britain?

I can perfectly understand that you're upset with the school that they didn't tell you that you weren't eligible beforehand. But it seems to me very reasonable that the ICC should be open only to British nationals. The ICC is not designed to be a 'proper' qualification from the British point of view - that is the prerogative of Day/Coastal Skippers and Yachtmasters. The ICC is just the British way of getting round foreign governments who think that yachtmen should have a bit of paper, a bit like the licensing equivalent of the SSR.

It's OK the RYA trying to fiddle it for British nationals, but foreign governments aren't going to be too happy if they start trying to offer a way round foreign licensing requirements for all nationalities.

 

[Anonymous]

ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Leaving aside, for a moment, the specific case we have been discussing, where do you get the following from? Is this some official policy that has been published?....[ QUOTE ]
The ICC is not designed to be a 'proper' qualification from the British point of view - that is the prerogative of Day/Coastal Skippers and Yachtmasters. The ICC is just the British way of getting round foreign governments who think that yachtmen should have a bit of paper, a bit like the licensing equivalent of the SSR. It's OK the RYA trying to fiddle it for British nationals....

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Tekkie]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

What?? Day skipper etc is only recognised in the UK.

Wake up and smell the coffee. ICC aka International Certificate of Competance.

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Heh - I don't think its official policy, but you've got to admit, a qualification that can be gained in a day by someone on a flotilla holiday is not going to be to the same standard expected after a weeks course. This is NOT to say anyone with an ICC is not as (or more) competent than those with DS/CS/YM - just that they have not been examined/tested to the same level.
ICC is exactly what it says it is - an International Certificate of Competence - ie a boat driving license. I would not be supprised if the UK gov decided to make it compulsory for all UK skippers to have one. How many who have Road Driving Licenses can't drive??

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
.. but you've got to admit, a qualification that can be gained in a day by someone on a flotilla holiday is not going to be to the same standard expected after a weeks course.

[/ QUOTE ]That's an absurd comparison. The ICC is granted after a sailing test in just the same way as a Driving Licence is granted after a driving test. Neither the Driving Licence nor the ICC have any bearing on the amount of training that was required to get the candidate to the required level. The RYA is used as the issuer of the certificates, presumably for administrative convenience, but don't let us ever forget that the RYA is no more 'official' than the AA or the RAC. In fact the Day Skipper qualification is rather dodgy since anyone who attends a course can expect to pass simply by virtue of having attended! I would be surprised if anyone could pass an ICC test after no more than a weeks sailing - the test is half a day one-to-one with an independent examiner.

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

I was trying to say in an abbreviated way: Day/Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster are the primary UK qualifications run by the RYA with an educational purpose. They form the primary certification system of the RYA, but are not designed to be officially recognised abroad in countries where certification is compulsory.

The primary purpose of the ICC is not really educational, it is to hand out a piece of paper that can be waved by British yachtmen at foreign authorities where those authorities require their own nationals to be licensed, and think that British skippers should be too. In that sense, it is analogous to the Small Ships Register, whose purpose is to give you a piece of paper to wave at foreign authorities that think that boats ought to be registered. Both the ICC and my registration certificate were invaluable to me this past summer, for example, when I sailed to Russia - the authorities there could not possibly conceive that a boat could float without being registered, or that a society might exist where skippers were not licensed.

Therefore, the RYA bend over backwards to issue ICC's wherever humanly possible. They have to require some kind of minimum standard, however, or foreign authorities might get wind of this and start to refuse recognising them. That is the rationale behind the ICC, and why it is restricted to British nationals. That is why I described the ICC as I did.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, the RYA bend over backwards to issue ICC's wherever humanly possible. They have to require some kind of minimum standard, however, or foreign authorities might get wind of this and start to refuse recognising them. That is the rationale behind the ICC, and why it is restricted to British nationals.

[/ QUOTE ]Simon, is this official or just your fancy? I wasn't aware that the RYA "bend over backwards to issue ICCs". What evidence do you have to support this statement? What we do know for a fact is that the RYA have a very cosy commercial monopoly of training and certification in the UK which could quite properly be referred to the Monopolies Commission. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

You failed to quote the rest of my paragraph ...
I have seen people gaining ICC whom I would doubt have the ability to pass a Day Skipper, and these people have had a week on shore in dinghies and I assume some classroom bits and then a week on a yacht.

If one can gain an ICC after doing DS then I would have to summise that ICC standard is either at or below that required for DS.

The ICC is there for a purpose - that the holder can operate a boat.

CC/DS/CS/YM is there to futher the knowledge and experience and give the holder more confidence in his/her ability to deal with various situations.

 

[LadyInBed]

I got my ICC (motor) many moons back on the strength of my RYA Diver / Cox cert (before the CEVNI was introduced) to go through the French canals. ICC (sail) is not required, as your mast is down before you transit the canals /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. It’s now lapsed as it is only valid for 5(?) years, but if I want to revalidate it, I guess I send off the old one with coin of the Realm to the RYA. I would also need the CEVNI so would have to fine someone to test me.

Re the Keil Canal - my understanding is that you don’t need an ICC or CEVNI to transit.
I think the reasons are - No locks (apart from start and end). No stopping over on route. No bend X over’s, in fact, no bends at all.

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Well this is more or less quoting word for word what my examiner told me when I took my ICC.

I cannot imagine any other reason why someone should take an ICC, after all it doesn't fit in with the progression of RYA 'domestic' qualifications. I suspect that, if you asked the RYA why they do the ICC course, they would tell you that it is there for the primary purpose I mentioned of satisfying foreign authorities.

This is supported by the fact that they will issue it to you without any exam at all if you already have one of their other qualifications (I can't remember if that applies to Day Skipper, but it does for the other two).

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

You failed to quote the rest of my paragraph ...
Sorry, I wasn't trying to distort your comments.
I have seen people gaining ICC whom I would doubt have the ability to pass a Day Skipper, and these people have had a week on shore in dinghies and I assume some classroom bits and then a week on a yacht.
I wouldn't be surprised; I don't know that we can learn very much from isolated cases that we happen to witness ourselves - in any case, those we notice are invariably the hopeless cases!
If one can gain an ICC after doing DS then I would have to summise that ICC standard is either at or below that required for DS.
As that sentence stands, the logic is faulty - there is not necessarily any correlation whatsoever. We do know that the RYA scheme is designed to take complete control over all UK leisure boating training. It's like the AA insisting upon licencing all the driving instructors. No organisation - especially not a commercial organisation - should have the sort of power that the RYA enjoys.
The ICC is there for a purpose - that the holder can operate a boat.
Sure, that's what a Driving Licence, Pilots Licence,.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
CC/DS/CS/YM is there to futher the knowledge and experience and give the holder more confidence in his/her ability to deal with various situations.
They are training courses and people who go on the course expect to be awarded the pass. BSM don't guarantee a pass in the Driving Test after a course of driving lessons, and you are not guaranteed a pass after taking an ICC test. The reality is that the ICC is a more honest and open test of a person's ability as it is not linked in any way to an expensive training course taken at the examiner's school.

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

I believe I could've got ICC (sail) up to end of Dec04 on the strength of my RYA Dinghy Instructor Cert... possibly with my Powerboat 3 (old money one). What relevance that has to handling a yacht or large motorboat (I did it in a 4m rib with 25hp!) I don't know...

 

[30boat]

As a Portuguese citizen Ican tell you that I got Certificate of competence(three in succession in fact) but they where issued by a body licensed by the Portughese authorities for that effect.I suppose I could get certificate from a RYA licensed training center here but it wouldn't then be valid under Portughese law.The boat is Portughese registered too.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is more or less quoting word for word what my examiner told me when I took my ICC

[/ QUOTE ]Where, other than at an RYA affiliated school, can you get sail training that leads to any sort of paper qualification? Answer, nowhere. The RYA is a large commercial organisation running a monopoly. Does anyone seriously expect anyone working for them or as part of the present setup wanting to change things?

There has to be a proper internationally accepted 'licence' for recreational boating so that people can show proof of ability to insurers, charterers, foreign officials, or even friends and family who might think of sailing with them. The RYA have been running down the ICC right from the beginning. Why? Could it be because candidates are not obliged to spend a single hour being instructed by one of their affiliated instructors in order to sit the test?

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
The RYA have been running down the ICC right from the beginning. Why? Could it be because candidates are not obliged to spend a single hour being instructed by one of their affiliated instructors in order to sit the test?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that that is unduly cynical. Also illogical: if the RYA didn't like the fact that the ICC can be taken without any hours of instruction thus denying instructors of revenue, then they would make it one of the requirements that you should get a certain number of hours instruction before passing the exam, or at least make the ICC harder, to encourage you to get instruction.

Anyway, I think that I am right in saying that there are no requirements as to hours of instruction for any of the other certificates issued by the RYA. YM for example, only has requirements as to number of miles sailed. So ICC is no different from the other RYA certificates in this respect.

I think that their desire to hand out the ICC wherever possible rather stems from the RYA belief in education rather than compulsory licensing. Which is why they are happy to hand out an ICC wherever they can decently do so.

p.s. I am not a member of the RYA, so no axe to grind.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I could've got ICC (sail) up to end of Dec04 on the strength of my RYA Dinghy Instructor Cert... possibly with my Powerboat 3 (old money one). What relevance that has to handling a yacht or large motorboat (I did it in a 4m rib with 25hp!) I don't know...

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps, but there are always anomalies on the introduction of new qualifications. My father never took a driving test - he was driving before the driving test came into being; they gave them to everyone who was already driving at that time. Many professional qualifications have far more stringent academic requirements today than they used to have, including certain Incorporated Institutes, but the fact that people could at one time have passed with a lower (or non-existent) evidence of ability does not devalue the qualification for all time. On topic, just because the RYA dole out ICCs to all takers of their DS courses does not, by itself, show that the ICC is a lesser standard. The opposite might be true and, on occasions, is almost certainly true.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
I think that that is unduly cynical. Also illogical: if the RYA didn't like the fact that the ICC can be taken without any hours of instruction thus denying instructors of revenue, then they would make it one of the requirements that you should get a certain number of hours instruction before passing the exam, or at least make the ICC harder, to encourage you to get instruction.

[/ QUOTE ] People would (quite rightly) go ballistic - why should the RYA have the right to insist that people buy a certain number of hours instruction in their affiliated schools in order to obtain a 'licence'?[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I think that I am right in saying that there are no requirements as to hours of instruction for any of the other certificates issued by the RYA. YM for example, only has requirements as to number of miles sailed. So ICC is no different from the other RYA certificates in this respect.

[/ QUOTE ]Can you get a Day Skipper or Competent Crew Certificate without going on a course?

[ QUOTE ]
I think that their desire to hand out the ICC wherever possible rather stems from the RYA belief in education rather than compulsory licensing. Which is why they are happy to hand out an ICC wherever they can decently do so.

[/ QUOTE ]Well you might call it 'cynical' but surely it would be commercial madness for the RYA not to give ICCs to everyone who 'passes' (i.e. attends) a Day Skipper course. They are not desiring to hand out certificates, they are in business and their biggest business is the CC, DS and YM courses and tests. If the RYA did not deal with the accreditation of providers of instruction, what would be left?

 

[Birdseye]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

The ICC was originally devised as a way of showing competence to foreign authorities in the absence of a UK license system. It was a bit of a fiddle and originally was issued on no more than the say so of the Commodore of your club. We issued loads of them. When this approach was objected to by some EC members, the present system was brought in which requires either a practical and theory ICC test or the holding of a day skipper or equivalent qualification. The DS or YM themselves cant be used simply because they dont carry a photo of the holder and they arent in languages other than English. For some incomprehensible reason, the Frogs like things to be written in Frog! All this incidentally is my recollection of what the RYA has said to me at various times.

And as for the RYA's motive, doesnt the fact that the cost of the ICC is (used to be? I havent checked recently) fixed at £1 more than personal RYA membership which gets you a free ICC tell you something?

Am still not sure from Joeirish's comments exactly what qualifications the Irish authorities require. I thought that RYA courses were used in Eire, but presumably there must be another system.

 

[snowleopard]

don't expect the RYA to produce correct certificates except perhaps by chance. i passed YM offshore and ocean together. when the certificates arrived one said YM ocean, the other Day Skipper. i sent back the latter back and asked for the YM offshore. did i get it? did i hell! i got another YM ocean. at that point i gave up so i'm now YM ocean and bar.

then i sent in one of the certificates to get my ICC which duly arrived (leaving me 30 quid lighter for a piece of paper i've never used since) but it took another 2 months of chasing to get my original certificate back.

 

[alant]

Which Day Skipper course did your wife pass to get both power & sail together?
<Power up to 10m: Yes
Sail up to 24m or 80GT: Yes> /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif