Worthless ICC?

[VicMallows]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

In fact, go back a few more years and you could get the forerunner, the 'Helmsmans Overseas Cert of Comp' simply on the basis of your yacht club Commodores signature. The HOCC was then 'grandfathered' into an ICC when this was first introduced. Still needed to do CEVNI though for the canals.

Vic

 

[Lizzie_B]

Yes, if you sit the ICC exam, but with a Day Skipper practical cert (as in this case) you don't, so you then have to take a seperate CEVNI exam if you wish to go on the canals as the ICC issued on the strength of your Day Skipper practical cert will only be endorsed as per the endorsements on the Day Skipper Cert, which it now appears the school hasn't filled in.

 

[Lizzie_B]

If as you say, you have concerns about the quality of teaching (as well as the fact that the school took your money without making the ICC elegibility rules clear to you) then you should report them to the RYA. The RYA cannot be personally present everyday at every school it licenses and depends on compliants being reported to them by disatisfied customers. They will withdraw their license if enough people complain, however, the schools rely on customers not complaining and being only too pleased to get their certificate without difficulty. In contrast, when I did my Dayskipper practical (a long time ago now) at Southern Sailing and the boat had engine problems, the school gave us a free long weekend to come back and do the under power manouvres which we had been unable to complete, rather than sign off our certs, even though the lack of engine for most of the course had meant that we had carried out sailing skills well above the level of those required!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

1. RYA does not insist that you buy a certain number of hours at one of their afiliated schools in order to get a license. In fact RYA is against 'licensing'. Anyone who thinks that they can meet the'required standard' can apply to be examined. Many RYA schools offer an examination only service. A lot of sailing clubs keep a list of Examiners who will examine you without the course, or you can apply to the RYA direct to arrange an examination.
2.Yes you can get a Day Skipper, Competent Crew- also Coastal Skipper,Yachtmaster, Keel Boat etc, without going on a course. Simply get a copy of the syllabus(which you will be pleased to know is available from non RYA sources)but also free from the RYA. If you think you can do it, then you can apply to be examined. The very modest fees that the RYA charge for performing and adminstering the examinations are hardly indicative of an organisation in pursuit of massive profits, and compare very favourably with those charged by a lot of professional bodies with charitable status (which the RYA does not have).You don't even have to join the RYA to be examined!!!!
3. The ICC is a basic boat handling Certificate. The requirements for the exam were drawn up in consultation with many of those nations who have some form of compulsory testing. It is not the RYA who insists that you must have an ICC, but those countries who have compulsory licensing that you wish to visit. The RYA is not a monopoly supplier of the ICC. There are other bodies which can issue one.
Neither is the RYA a monopoly provider of sailing instruction. They simply adminster the examination and the issuing of certificates. They do not own, or take a cut from the profits of RYA affiliated sea schools. There is no statutory requirement for a sea school to be RYA affiliated, precisely because the RYA has resisted compulsory licensing. They simply adminster a voluntary examination syllabus. However, there is nothing to stop you setting up 'Lemain's School of Yachting' and asking the MCA to exam your candidates for the ICC if you really didn't want to use RYA examiners. You could issue a 'Lemain's School of Yachting Skipper's Certificate'.to those successfully completing your course. All this can be done without reference to the RYA. You would, of course have to deal with the MCA re equipment levels on your boats, and presumably HSE with regard to your premises etc, but not the RYA.
It is also possible for foriegn nationals to be issued with an ICC as well as British Nationals. However, they must be resident in the UK. It is not Joe Irish's nationality that prevents him from having an ICC, but the rules of his country of residence (presumably Ireland). There are a few countries who will accept the ICC instead of their own qualification for their own nationals (usually the ones who don't have compulsory licensing) and a list can be obtained from any ICC issuer. Perhaps Portugal is one of them?

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Yep. It's to boost their membership!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Should clarify : the RYA does not have a monopoly on testing for qualifications which will entitle you to be issued with an ICC. They are the authorised body for issuing them as they were the body that negotiated its content and recognition with other nations.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: 1. RYA does not insist that you buy a certain number of hours at one of their afiliated schools in order to get a license. In fact RYA is against 'licensing'. Anyone who thinks that they can meet the'required standard' can apply to be examined. Many RYA schools offer an examination only service. A lot of sailing clubs keep a list of Examiners who will examine you without the course, or you can apply to the RYA direct to arrange an examination.

If you mean 'licence' = ICC then yes, that is correct. That's what I was saying and that's what sets it apart from the CC and DS 'qualifications'. The ICC is a reasonably normal test in that you can easily find an examiner who will test you without you having to take any training.

Quote: 2.Yes you can get a Day Skipper, Competent Crew- also Coastal Skipper,Yachtmaster, Keel Boat etc, without going on a course.

I've had a good look at the RYA information and that doesn't seem to be the case for Day Skipper or Competent Crew, which is what we are comparing against the ICC.

Quote: Simply get a copy of the syllabus(which you will be pleased to know is available from non RYA sources)but also free from the RYA.

No, it's £4.50 and it is not even as a free download. It is very much an RYA proprietary training scheme, not a qualification as far as I can see.

Quote: The very modest fees that the RYA charge for performing and adminstering the examinations are hardly indicative of an organisation in pursuit of massive profits......,

Like many organisations today, the RYA concentrates on signing people up to Direct Debit payments which are far more profitable in the long run than one-off payments. Take the ICC - it costs £34 if you are not an RYA member but if you take out a DD subscription to the RYA it costs £30 - but you have to remember to cancel the DD. Maybe I'm over-sensitive, but I don't get good feelings about companies that try to force me into a long-term financial commitment when all I want is a single transaction. It smacks of underhandedness.

Quote: 3. The ICC is a basic boat handling Certificate. The requirements for the exam were drawn up in consultation with many of those nations who have some form of compulsory testing. It is not the RYA who insists that you must have an ICC, but those countries who have compulsory licensing that you wish to visit.

Exactly, those countries that do require yachtsmen to be tested do not think highly enough of the RYA offering that they are prepared to accept it as proof of competence of British yachtsmen sailing in their waters - that's why they want an ICC (not that their officials often check that British yachtsmen are carrying an ICC, but that's not the issue). Given that there is little doubt that a properly-fulfilled Day Skipper should be at least equal to, or higher than, an ICC maybe they do not approve of the RYA system of granting the qualifications almost without question to those who have completed the CC or DS courses? Does anyone know of a single case where a DS or CC entrant has not been awarded the certificate?? For all practical purposes you can purchase a CC or DS.

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

I agree that sometimes it would appear that a qualification can be bought, purely by attending a course. However, a 5 day course gives the instructor more time to evaluate the ability of the candidate rather than relying on a few questions and a potter about on a boat.
I think you'll find there are political reasons behind countries not recognising the RYA CC/DS/CS/YM certificates.

On the whole - I do agree, it appears to be much easier to get an RYA certificate these days. I recall having to sit written tests for my RYA Dinghy level 2 & 3 and getting quite a grilling from the examiner. Dinghy instructor wasn't much easier. SRC though was a matter of attending the course, giving one verbal mayday and answering a question paper correctly - hardly difficult, although IMO a worthwhile course to do, for confidence more than anything else....

So - is ICC a proper qualification? - no more than DS is in the UK..... IMO !

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: So - is ICC a proper qualification? - no more than DS is in the UK..... IMO !
I think that more people around the world will accept ICC as a qualification than DS, but I could be wrong?

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

34 pounds??? I can't imagine that the RYA shareholders will be very pleased when they they found out. I can see the share price plummeting as we speak. Can't imagine they're going to declare a dividend this year. Maybe the 4.50 charged for the booklet will help. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
34 pounds??? I can't imagine that the RYA shareholders will be very pleased when they they found out. I can see the share price plummeting as we speak. Can't imagine they're going to declare a dividend this year. Maybe the 4.50 charged for the booklet will help. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Let's be clear - this is for issuing a piece of paper. Nothing more. You have to pay separately for the test. Is £34 a fair price to pay for one piece of A6 paper with a rubber stamp?

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

But the money for the test goes to the sailing school, not the RYA, so the 34 pounds is all they receive. I presume they have to pay rent, salaries etc., so I'd say it is very fair indeed.

Here in Poland getting a skipper's certificate takes years, involves onks of courses and costs a fortune. I was sitting in the pub with a (non-Polish) friend who is a semi-professional yachtsman and circumnavigated the globe with his father recently. He was telling me that he couldn't hire a dinghy on a lake near here, so I offered to hire one with him as crew using my ICC. I'm not sure that he'd be allowed to steer though, because he doesn't even have a helmsman's certificate.

On occasions like that, I would like to get down and kiss the RYA's little white socks. 34 pounds is not a lot.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

1.Every sailing school I have contacted is prepared to examine for all RYA certs on the basis of adequate previous experience. Ironically I got my powerboat, keelboat and dinghy level two certificates from the Island Cruising Club(another ICC) using this method. I discussed my previous experience with them, then went there and took the tests.
2. The ICC 'syllabus', i.e. what areas of knowledge and what practical skills you will be examined on is available as a free download from the RYA website. It comprosises the last two pages of the ICC application form. You can also get this posted to you free by phoning or emailing the RYA.I can only assume that the £4.50 you are referring to is the training handbook. There are many non RYA publications available which you can use for training.
3.Re direct debits. You seem to be complaining that the RYA is offering to pass on some of the admin savings to their membership. There are still plenty of organisations that give no discount for direct debit, including my own professional organisation which even benefits from charitable status. Why should the RYA membership not have some priviledges over people who do not wish to become members when it comes to providing services that the RYA has been statuatorily charged with providing.
4.You make a massive assumption about what other countries think of RYA qualifications being the driving force for the ICC. The French for example weren't prepared to accept anything that wasn't written in French! There are many countries that have compulsory licensing schemes that other countries will not recognise, and because of their compulsory nature of qualification the qualification is sometimes ridiculously basic. A sunny Saturday on a flat calm Lake Michigan is enough to demonstrate that. The ICC is well below the requirements of Day Skipper. That might actually suggest the opposite of your assertion, and indicate that some compulsory license countries are prepared to settle for a lot less than the standard of Day Skipper, as it was they who agreed the standard.
5.Finally, as already posted, the RYA cannot be expected to police every examination. Whether the qualification can be 'bought' cheaply or not is dependant on the integrity of the individual examiner. the majority of them are good people and enthusiasts for sailing. From things I have seen and heard the problem is not limited to earlier qualifications, but can go right up to yachtmaster. However, the only way that examinations can be effectively policed is for examinees to complain, and it is a rare examinee who will complain that he was given too easy a time. Of all the horror stories I have heard only in one case did the person make a complaint about it. With regard to the possibility of failure, my wife took her CC last year. Of twelve candidates for CC or DS, spread over three boats, three failed. The person who failed on her boat was a Day Skipper candidate,who the examiner was not even prepared to pass for Competent Crew.
The one RYA examiner amongst my personal friends would certainly have no qualms about failing any one who he thought not up to standard.In fact he usually instructs above and beyond the syllabus, and needs to feel that the candidate can pass the examination requirements comfortably, as safety is always his prime concern.
You should also remember that CC is a simple, very basic introduction to sailing and is not equivalent to, or qualify you to have an ICC. The minimum standard for that is Day Skipper. As such, it should be very hard to fail CC, even for a complete beginner to sailing.

At the end of the day I would rather have the RYA, with all it's faults, adminstering boating in this country than HMG! It, at least, does have the potential to be a member driven organisation, if the membership were not so apathetic (or could they be generally contented).

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Though, of course, I'm sure someone who speaks as authoritively as Lemain will tell you that the RYA does not have share holders. It's evil, money grabbing constitution only allows any profits from its trading activities to be used for representing and promoting sailing and boating sport and leisure. We all know the British Olympic sailing team members are relatives or close personal friends of the boss of the RYA!!!!!! They had a great holiday in Greece at the expense of all those of us forced into buying ICCs.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
But the money for the test goes to the sailing school, not the RYA, so the 34 pounds is all they receive. I presume they have to pay rent, salaries etc., so I'd say it is very fair indeed......On occasions like that, I would like to get down and kiss the RYA's little white socks. 34 pounds is not a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]No Simon, you have misunderstood. The £34 all goes to the RYA. You have to pay the examiner quite separately and that fee has nothing to do with the RYA. Incidentally, I was not making an issue of the £34 save insofar as they try to get you to sign a £30 per annum Direct Debit mandate to join the RYA instead.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: 1.Every sailing school I have contacted is prepared to examine for all RYA certs on the basis of adequate previous experience.
Roughly how many schools is that? The ICC is designed to be a test, not a training course, so there is no issue in taking the test regardless of previous experience. As for DS, did those sailing schools explain the nature of the exams or tests that they would conduct, in order to award a DS on the basis of your stated previous experience in lieu of their course? It isn't clear to me how they could carry out a test rigidly in accordance with the DS syllabus on an ad hoc basis.

Quote: 2. ....I can only assume that the £4.50 you are referring to is the training handbook.
No, the £4.50 is for their publication G15 which is described as "Explains the new syllabus for the RYA Yachtmaster, Day and Coastal Skipper and Competent Crew sailing courses. Space for personal log and completion certificates." There does not appear to be a freely available syllabus for the DS or CC courses. I am taking all this information direct from their website so presumably it is correct.

Quote: 3.Re direct debits. You seem to be complaining that the RYA is offering to pass on some of the admin savings to their membership.
No, you are missing the point. The RYA issues these effectively as an agent for HM Government. It is perfectly valid to ask why RYA members should get a free certificate. Another perfectly valid question is how the issuing of an ICC could possibly be fairly priced at £34 if a whole years membership of the RYA is only £30 and includes the ICC? The final argument, which was the point I was making in my last post, is that it is underhand of the RYA to encourage people to join the RYA by Direct Debit for £30 pa when all they really wanted was to pay for an ICC. Whichever way you look at it, the RYA is not exactly smelling of roses.

Quote:4.....The ICC is well below the requirements of Day Skipper.
If that is so then you will be able to tell us in what respects the requirements of the ICC are below those of Day Skipper - taking into account that the ICC is a test and interview, whereas the Day Skipper is a training course.

Quote: At the end of the day I would rather have the RYA, with all it's faults, adminstering boating in this country than HMG!
Would you want the AA to take over the driving test?!

Quote: It, at least, does have the potential to be a member driven organisation, if the membership were not so apathetic (or could they be generally contented).
That is an important point. The RYA is an employee-driven organisation and the more members, the more services the more employees and the bigger the offices, salaries....the usual corporate expansion stuff. Unless and until the RYA becomes member-driven I shall not become a member.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

On the question of whether we would prefer the RYA or HMG to administer licencing schemes, isn't it interesting that one of Ofcom's employees has been available in this forum doing an utterly thankless task - i.e. explaining laws and regulations to people who have a deep-seated hatred of regulation - yet throughout all of our discussions I cannot remember one occasion when an RYA employee has taken the time to post anything here.

Presumably they are nor really interested in the hobby; they are employees. Or maybe they are not aware of the UKs only credible sailing forum? It would be nice to be proved wrong but I shan't hold my breath!!

 

[Thistle]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
Unless and until the RYA becomes member-driven I shall not become a member.

[/ QUOTE ]
The RYA Council - it's board of directors - is made up of volunteer members of the Association who are elected / appointed by the membership. As in any other organisation, the board directs the work of the organisation, including its employees. In practice this direction is largely at a policy level with the day-to-day decisions left to a very professional management team. There are also a number of committees, again made up of volunteer members, who help to direct the work of the various divisions of the RYA (cruising / racing / training / etc)

The RYA is member-driven but, like so many other organisations, it would benefit from the active participation of many more of its members. So please join, take part, and help to drive the organisation in the direction you, as a concerned sailor, want it to go. From personal experience I can tell you that it is possible and that it is enjoyable and rewarding; it also helps to give you a much better understanding of the range of constraints under which the RYA works.

 

[Anonymous]

RYA compared with Cruising Association

This is a long way from the topic but interesting, nevertheless. Maybe it would be worth starting a new thread to discuss?

I am a member of the Cruising Association which is a different kettle of fish to the RYA, altogether. There is a members' handbook giving contact details of other members, designated local representatives who can be contacted wherever one happens to be cruising in the world, a website that is clearly for the members own use - not a advertising board for products and services, yahoo groups for cruising areas, a library offering free access to a wide range of nautical books and charts with free study area and usually free internet connection via own laptop, in Limehouse basin, cheap overnight accommodation in London - basic but fine - , regular evening meetings - training, interest,... The Cruising Association is a members' association. The RYA is not, by comparison, worthy of the name 'association' - it is a plc. I am sure that other CA members would agree.

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Think you misunderstood me, by "money for the test" I mean the money you pay the sailing school for examining you. I meant that the 34 pounds is all the RYA receive. I think we are saying the same thing.