Worthless ICC?

[joeirish]

My wife just got her ICC. We had both sucessfully completed our Day Skipper practical course abroad - but I can't have and ICC because I'm Irish and living in Ireland. My wife could because she is English. Pity the RYA training centre didn't tell us this when we enroled. We probably would have gone to a centre in Ireland instead.

Anyway the main point of this messsage is to ask listers what my wife should now do because the ICC information is confusing.

On the certificate it states that it is Valid For:
Coastal Water: No
Inland Waters: No
Power up to 10m: Yes
Sail up to 24m or 80GT: Yes

Where do you think she can sail then? On a trailer? In hte YC car park? Surely she is now qualified for coastal waters?

 

[tcm]

this sounds completely wrong (but i did smile) - its just gotta be ok for EITHER inland OR coastal, imho...

 

[VicMallows]

Sounds like someone made a mess of ticking the boxes, but she can at least take her 80 GRT boat up the canals!

Vic

 

[sailorman]

them that can do
them that cant teach

 

[Guest]

Call the RYA and ask them. When I got my ICC certificate they incorrectly hadn't ticked the inland box even though I'd passed the CEVNI bit. I called them, they apologised and sent out a new certificate. Unfortunately, the replacement arrived too late for my passage through the Kiel Canal (the Germans like that sort of thing, especially for inland), but I survived.

 

[boatmike]

Sounds like the RYA have done their best to give you an "Irish" certificate. Somehow chocolate teapots come to mind again..... Is there not an Irish equivalent to the RYA that would recognise your course though?

 

[wooslehunter]

The point about why you cannot get an ICC from the RYA was answered by James Stevens the RYA Training Manager in a recent PBO. The question was asked by a Mr Saaf who is a Dutch national but has not lived there for 30 years. He did an RYA Day Skipper in the UK but now finds himself in the same position as you. He can't get an ICC from the dutch authority because they don't recognise his UK qualifications. The answer from James goes like this:

"The RYA issiues the ICC under the authority of the MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) who in turn receive their authority from the EU. Mr Saaf's situation emphasises why a compulsary licence is such a bad idea. The RYA cannot issue Mr Saaf an ICC becuase many other nations and in particular, the Dutch, are opposed to their citizens using British certificates as a way of circumventing their own qualifications. While I sympathise with Mr Saaf, the RYA represents British boating, and is not in a position to take up the case of a Dutch citizen living in France."

Keeping up standards or protectionism???

 

[Lizzie_B]

Your sailing school where you did the course should have endorsed the Day Skipper practical certificate as either coastal or inland depending on where the course was conducted. The RYA would then issue accordingly, so the first thing to do is check that the Day Skipper cert has been properly endorsed (mine had only been signed with no endorsment). If it has then go back to the RYA and get the right ICC endorsement, if it hasn't go back to the school and get the dayskipper certificate properly endorsed. I would also be tempted to ask for a partial refund from the sailing school for not informing you of the nationality restrictions before accepting you on the course! You should also be aware that regardless of how your ICC is endorsed, you technically cannot use them on the European Canals unless you also pass the CEVNI test.

 

[Davy_S]

Not sure I understand this! You say the day skipper course was taken abroad, was it tidal? if not,you wont get coastal icc, also how did you obtain icc for power and sail at the same time?

 

[joeirish]

It was tidal and the endorsements section says none?

 

[joeirish]

Thanks. No endorsement on the certificate so I'll have to contact the school now which is in Portugal. Such hassle I can do without.

 

[joeirish]

I read that reply also. But if the RYA licence a training centre in Portugal and that centre allows Irish citizsens to attend courses who is protecting who? I can't get an ICC from the Irish Saililng Association (our national body) as it was not one of the ISA training centres, I can't get one from the Portuguese even though the school is there, and I can't get one form the RYA who licence the school in Portugal because I'm not resident in the UK. So, tough on all those Portuguese who want to get a qualification with a school in their own country. It really stinks if you ask me.

 

[Guest]

The CEVNI test is generally taken as part of the ICC exam. If you pass the CEVNI questions during the ICC exam, they tick the "inland" box on the ICC certificate.

 

[Guest]

To me the RYA's attitude makes perfect sense. The value of the ICC is that it is recognised by foreign authorities. Foreign authorities in a country where there is compulsory licensing are not going to be happy if their own nationals start doing the ICC exam to avoid having to do their own domestic exam which may be much more stringent (the ICC is not stringent at all, and is not intended to be).

People should not be able to 'shop around' for the easiest exam. A Frenchman can't avoid getting a French licence by paying a few dollars to an institution in Bongoland to give him a bit of paper.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
It really stinks if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ] If you pass the test you should be given the certificate whether you are black, white, irish, english, or from the planet mars and it shouldn't matter where the test was taken if it was carried out by an authorised testing centre. It's bureaucracy gone totally bonkers - utterly nonsensical. You could try muttering "European Court of Human Rights" into people's ears....or speak to whoever is handing out Ester Rantzen's jobsworth awards these days.

 

[cliffb]

But Simon, what if you get an ICC as a 'bolt on' to the day Skipper, and then you want a CEVNI? 'Cos that's my situation. I want a CEVNI but can't find how to get one. THat is...I can't find a school that does them, as a stand alone jobby. Not round here anyway. Or does anyone know of a Correspondence Course that does them?

 

[duncan]

you can definitely get it (CEVNI) as a bolt on from a School and I would reprot any school that does ICC to the RYA if they refuse to do it for you. On the other hand as it's a 12 question multipul choice paper you can understand how they have trouble pricing the 'course' 'test' whatever...

re the original post, as originally raised, the technical solution would have been that the passes were on non tidal waters and that CEVNI wasn't done or was failed. Clearly, from subsequent replies that isn't the case and I am sure the RYA will reissue a corrected certificate.
Finally I don't believe that the matter of who and where is protectionism (as implied) by the RYA but is a response to other countries and, ultimately, is protection for UK boaters holding RYA qualifications traveling overseas. As others above I welcome this - but do have share the concerns that this wasnt clarified (or even highlighted anywhere?) by the school in question.

 

[Birdseye]

Way I see it, your argument is with your own national authorities (or even with the IRA who did you the great disservice of making you non British) because they are the ones who are deciding what training they will accept for the ICC. The RYA provides adequate training through its recognised centres. Its generally accepted world wide as a good system. So why doesnt the Irish Sailing Org accept that? Are there purely Irish qualifications?

 

[joeirish]

I suppose the ISA operates the same way as the RYA, both organisations operate a protectionist policy. Anyway the ISA cannot issue an ICC as they are bound by an international agreement in the same way the RYA is.

My complaint is that the RYA training centre took my money knowing I was Irish living in Ireland and therefore not eleigible to get an ICC from the RYA. According to the school principle the vast majority of his day skipper students only do the DS to get an ICC for chartering etc. That was why I did it too. Why wasn't I told this before spending a lot of money for a DS that is useless interms of getting an ICC?

And I could write a whole article of the shortcomings of the DS course I was on. Things have been signed off in the RYA log book that never actually happened. So I would have some concerns about the RYA standards from my personal experience.

 

[joeirish]

Got an email from RYA today apologising for an error when they completed the ICC. The DS cert clearly state Practical Sailing Course, Day Skipper Tidal. They should have made the ICC valid for coastal waters. They are going to replace it.

At least that is sorted. Maybe others ought to check their certs just in case.

But i still would have like to have been told that my RYA DS certificate would not be valid for an ICC because I am Irish and living in Ireland before I spent a substantial sum of money on this course. Anyway we only need one ICC for chartering and my wife will have a valid one shortly so that's OK.