Worthless ICC?

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

From the RYA Website on ICC

[ QUOTE ]

This qualification is available to BRITISH CITIZENS or bona fide BRITISH RESIDENTS.

There are 2 ways to obtain an ICC:

1. By completing the ICC application form and attaching a photocopy of your Practical certificate at Powerboat Level 2, Day Skipper or above. For clarification please consult the list of certificates eligible for conversion on the back of the ICC application form

[/ QUOTE ] .....


Therefore - the ICC requires the same level of competance as required for DS.

The second method - for those that are left wondering - is to get an examiner to examine you ...

The problem I have with people moaning about accountability etc etc is that they are the very ones refusing to contribute ... If you don't like the way the RYA is run - either shutup and put up OR get involved in the running of it. QED!

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: Would you want the AA to take over the driving test?!


[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is of course that a driving licence is compulsory. No doubt the RYA's role will be taken over by the MCA when sailing licences become compulsory.

The MCA have already given us a flavour of what the sport of sailing will look like then by trying to impose on Sunsail compulsory inflation of lifejackets when they are being worn. And no doubt licences will be withdrawn if you're caught without a written passage plan, and a host of other imbecilities. Government institutions have already given ample evidence of their incompetence in regulating boating. Better to give the RYA all the support they can get.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: Therefore - the ICC requires the same level of competance as required for DS.
That is a non-sequitur. All we know from what you posted is that the RYA are prepared to issue an ICC if you have a DS. It could be that the DS is, in their opinion, a much higher standard. Since the ICC has been agreed with other countries, it would be interesting to know whether those countries actually agreed that Day Skipper (or any other RYA quals) would be acceptable for the automatic issuing of an ICC. If they had done, it would be logical to suppose that only a translation and a photo would have been needed. Surely it seem more likely that those countries perceived the UK ICC to be a higher qualification when the matter was agreed?

Quote: The problem I have with people moaning about accountability etc etc is that they are the very ones refusing to contribute ... If you don't like the way the RYA is run - either shutup and put up OR get involved in the running of it.
It's not as simple as that in the case of the ICC. We are obliged to have an ICC in order to sail to certain places. It is Government's duty to provide a means of obtaining a UK qualification - which they have done by contracting it out to the RYA so non-members do have to have dealings with them. But let's be clear, whilst I am no lover of the RYA I am not setting out to change it or harm it - I am just avoiding it!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: The difference is of course that a driving licence is compulsory. No doubt the RYA's role will be taken over by the MCA when sailing licences become compulsory.

The ICC is compulsory if you want to sail your British-flagged yacht to certain places overseas. Had the government managed to obtain a waiver for all British-flagged yachts then that would have been different, but they did not - they presumably agreed (with the help of the RYA) that it would be mandatory for British yachts to be skippered by someone with an ICC; the nature of the ICC was presumably agreed with the overseas organisations concerned so it is not an RYA 'thing' and within the gift of the RYA, it is an internationally-agreed examination with defined requirements. Unlike the Day Skipper which is an RYA product and can be anything the RYA wants it to be.

Regarding your final paragraph about the MCA, etc; that is an interesting discussion but maybe best in another thread lest we drift too far!

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
The ICC is compulsory if you want to sail your British-flagged yacht to certain places overseas. Had the government managed to obtain a waiver for all British-flagged yachts then that would have been different, but they did not - they presumably agreed (with the help of the RYA) that it would be mandatory for British yachts to be skippered by someone with an ICC

[/ QUOTE ]

Two misconceptions here: first the ICC is in no way compulsory. Certainly not under British law. Under foreign law, well, all the countries I know that have a compulsory licensing system let foreigners take the exam: if I wanted to sail in Poland and had no ICC, I could sit a Polish skippers exam (having done endless courses etc.). So I could avoid the ICC if I were lunatic enough to want to.

Second, the government DID obtain a waiver of the type you describe for EU countries. You are not required to carry an ICC. However, they have not negotiated this with every country in the world. The ICC is intended to fill the gap for non-EU countries that have compulsory licensing.

The rationale for having the ICC, is that you don't have to explain to foreign officials the difference between a Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper etc. etc. ("Ah, so you're only licensed to sail in coastal waters, are you?! [dollar signs ring up in the eyes]). All that foreign officials want to know is: "do you have the proper licence to sail this boat under the laws of your home country". The ICC is a quick and short answer, without having to explain British law or why you're only a "Coastal" Skipper.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Quote: Second, the government DID obtain a waiver of the type you describe for EU countries. You are not required to carry an ICC. However, they have not negotiated this with every country in the world. The ICC is intended to fill the gap for non-EU countries that have compulsory licensing.

You are mistaken, it is the other way round. The ICC states that it is "In conformity with resolution No40 of the Working Party on Inland Water Transport United Nations Economic Commission for Europe" and all the languages are European.

Rather than speculate about what the ICC is for, from the ICC itself:-

"The holder of this document has successfully passed the tests necessary to demonstrate his/her competence to operate pleasure craft." which is reproduced in Dutch, Italian, Danish, French, Spanish, German and Greek. It is clearly a 'Europe' thing, with French as the No2 language on the front.

Quote: The rationale for having the ICC, is that you don't have to explain to foreign officials the difference between a Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper etc. etc. ("Ah, so you're only licensed to sail in coastal waters, are you?! [dollar signs ring up in the eyes]). All that foreign officials want to know is: "do you have the proper licence to sail this boat under the laws of your home country". The ICC is a quick and short answer, without having to explain British law or why you're only a "Coastal" Skipper.

You are mistaken. The ICC has possible validity for Coastal Waters and Inland Waters only. It does not have a classification for any sort of Offshore. However, the term 'Coastal Waters' is not defined. The other divisions are Power and Sail. Mine is shown as 'Yes' for both Power and Sail although I took the exam in a small sailing yacht with auxilliary engine. The certificate is valid for vessels not exceeding 24 metres in length.

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Yee Gods - is this what your arguing about? You have an ICC and are defending it's virtues to death??
Jeeze - in that case ... I passed my driving test and have a driving licence ... is that not a proper qualification?? There are millions of people on the road - most of whom have passed their test - and loads of whom crash their vehicles.... but they have a qualification that says they can drive ... NO ... they have a qualification that states they have done enough to satisfy an examiner that they have the knowledge to reasonably control their vehicles in everyday situations .... this is EXACTLY what CC/DS/ICC etc etc aim at... all be it in different ways...

The purpose of the ICC is to provide holders with an Internationaly understood certificate that should mean you are not unduly held up by officials. If the DS could, by itself be accepted, then it would've been.. however, you can get an ICC purely by holding a DS.

I don't think ANY of the leisure boating tickets - ICC/CC/DS could be deemed PROPER qualifications anymore than a driving licence is.

There are people with driving licences I wouldn't trust in my car.
There are people with YM I wouldn't trust in my boat.

 

[Guest]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

[ QUOTE ]
You are mistaken, it is the other way round...

It is clearly a 'Europe' thing, with French as the No2 language on the front.

[/ QUOTE ]

European regulations are negotiated by European governments, which include the UK. Recognition of the ICC as acceptable in this context is wholy down to the UK authorities, since other European countries generally don't have the ICC. Incidentally, the exemption that was negotiated does not apply to inland waterways. For that you still need the ICC, even in EU.

[ QUOTE ]
The ICC has possible validity for Coastal Waters and Inland Waters only. It does not have a classification for any sort of Offshore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that too, it's odd since it is generally necessary to go outside coastal waters to get to foreign countries. Luckily, foreign administrations don't seem to query the point.

 

[fireball]

Re: ICC is not a \'proper\' qualification?

Probably because the foreign administrators are not bothered once your outside their waters ....

 

[Thistle]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

CA sounds, from what you say, like a good organisation: I don't know enough about it to be able to judge. Would it be fair to suggest that it might be serving a different market / constituency / group (choose whichever you feel is the least contentious term) from the RYA? I don't feel that they are in competition with each other though I'm sure there are some who would be equally well served by either - or both - organisations.

Happy to discuss this further either here or in another thread.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

Would it be fair to suggest that it might be serving a different market / constituency / group (choose whichever you feel is the least contentious term) from the RYA? I don't feel that they are in competition with each other though I'm sure there are some who would be equally well served by either - or both - organisations.

Yes, that's a very fair statement. The CA is for cruising yachtsmen and women who are almost certainly experienced (or at least they are not looking to the CA for their training). There is a very strong feeling of ownership by the members - which you can't say of the RYA. I would recommend any yachtsman whose interest is mainly cruising to look at the CA website at Cruising Association

I'm not sure what the RYA thinks it does for the average yachtsman. I didn't find anything relevant to me during my years membership, but presumably some people find it useful or they wouldn't keep paying their subs?

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

Other than the French canals/rivers has anyone ever been asked by an official of any country for their qualifications to sail their boat? In 35 years I never have.

 

[Thistle]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

To most folk the RYA is best known for its training schemes. While I don't think anyone would claim that they are perfect, they are the schemes which are most widely available in this country, they are generally well run (but, like any scheme, can be susceptible to the occasional rogue instructor or centre despite steps taken to avoid this) and, particularly at the higher levels, they lead to certificates issued on behalf of or in association with other bodies (eg Short Range Certificate - issued on behalf of MCA; RYA/MCA Coastal Skipper Certificate of Competence; ICC - "in conformity with resolution No. 40 of the Working Party on Inland Water Transport United Nations Economic Commission for Europe".)

That, however, is only a part of the RYA's work: look at some other examples. As the governing body of the sport in the UK it has, through ISAF, a significant input to the organisation of racing (eg in the Racing Rules of Sailing.) As the governing body it is also a consultee on any local or national legislation which might affect leisure boating (its stand on breathalysers and incident reporting are two recent examples which you might remember.) Its large membership and, through them, local knowledge give it considerable influence in this area. The RYA also helps members, normally through member clubs, in cases of dispute: mooring rights and charges are common issues here.

The RYA, very importantly, also acts as a conduit for grants to the sport. Not all of this money goes to elite athletes: currently "On Board" - a grant-funded project aimed at increasing grass-roots participation in the sport - is being rolled out; many clubs and individuals throughout the country also benefit from small grants which have been channeled through the RYA.

It must also be remembered that the RYA operates on a very broad front: dinghy sailing from beginner to Olympic gold, yacht racing and cruising, motor and sail, sailboards, ...

The RYA doesn't set out to provide big direct benefits to individual members. It does, however, provide a huge amount of service to the sport as a whole from which we all benefit in one way or another. I've looked into it closely and I'm convinced that I get my thirty whatever quids-worth each year.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

Quote: Other than the French canals/rivers has anyone ever been asked by an official of any country for their qualifications to sail their boat? In 35 years I never have.

I did hear of one case but it is hearsay. However, if the inference is that nobody gets asked to show their quals, it is a dodgy inference. The world is becoming increasingly regulated - by the month, at the time of writing - but maybe the biggest single reason for carrying an accepted qualification at the present time is in the event of an incident involving local officials. Here is a true story of what happened to us in 1976...

We were cruising on my father's boat, a 45' twin diesel, from Valletta to La Goulette, Tunis, when the port engine suddenly changed pitch and started to take nearly twice the usual fuel. We reduced power on that engine an continued to La Goulette, where we considered what to do next- diving in the harbour did not seem an attractive proposition. I had my scuba gear aboard and had intended to dive in Tunisia - the guide books we had on board said that Tunisia was an ideal place to dive.

When the weather was settled a day or so later we motored out to a sandy bay just just outside La Goulette, and anchored in about 2 or 3 metres. We flew the 'A' and I nipped over the side, wearing my tank. I found that the port prop had picked up a blue monofilament net which had become horribly entangled and caught up into the cutlass bearing; I was going to have to cut it off with a very sharp knife. When I surfaced to ask for the knife, I found my parents in an agitated state due to what looked like a whole division of the Tunisian army pointing their guns at us, from the harbour wall. We decided that I needed to get the rope off before taking any other action; clearly we were safe other than, perhaps, from the soldiers. After I had taken the net off, we motored back to the harbour and were greeted (if that is the right term) by a dozen armed soldiers and an officer-type struggling and sweating under the midday sun.

All the soldiers came aboard, uninvited, followed by the officer, who was shouting in Arabic. They made no attempt to bridge the language barrier, they just shouted in Arabic. Eventually the officer responded to my French and we were able to manage basic communication. It turned out that the month before our visit scuba diving had been banned in Tunisia and the penalty was imprisonment and confiscation of the scuba gear. The officer insisted on seeing the ships papers INCLUDING the skipper's permit. Fortunately, with great foresight, my father had taken a correspondence course with Captain OM Watts, who had issued him with a very impressive 'yachtmaster' certificate, which impressed the officer so much that he smiled, sent his troops ashore, asked us to seal the scuba gear in our bonded store (having made space first by relieving us of a few bottles of decent scotch and a couple of cartons of Dunhill International to see him through the rest of Ramadan). So you see how important a certificate can be /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

I hear what you say. I think perhaps I can see why I don't feel that the RYA is particularly relevant to me....for me, sailing is a hobby (or way of life, at the moment) and not a sport. I am not in the least bit interested in racing and I don't follow the 'sport'. When I was a kid and had a dinghy, I was put off of my club because the whole thing revolved around Sunday races and I wanted to go free-sailing, not belting around buoys. Thinking aloud, maybe the RYA could become more relevant by forming a distinct cruising section. After all, if you look at most of the boats and sailors around our coasts, only a small minority seem to go racing.

 

[Thistle]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

Yes, I don't think we're in fundamental disagreement with each other. The RYA does - and knows it does - have difficulty in making many of its activities known to many of the water users out there who benefit from them. I've just had sight of a set of minutes from an RYA committee about half of which were taken up with matters relating to management of harbours, coastal areas close to beaches etc etc: dull reading and - for most of us - dull work but still important so that the interests of leisure sailors are properly taken into account.

 

[joeirish]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

See letter in current RYA Maazine about somebody being refused permission to berth in Montenego becasue he has left his ICC in England. Had to up sticks and leave the territorial waters by the shortest possible route.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: RYA compared with Cruising Association

Did he say whether he was carrying any other qualifications, such as Yachtmaster, Day Skipper, or anything?

 

[Melody]

Hi

Did you specifically tell the school that you wanted an ICC when you booked the course? If so, you possible have some claim on them, but not if you simply booked for a DS skipper course and didn't tell them until afterwards.

We run an RYA sailing school in Greece and, unless a student specifically mentions to me that they want an ICC I wouldn't assume that they did, as the RYA DS qualification is higher than ICC.

As a result of your experience I will make sure from now on that anyone applying for DS knows the restrictions.

One of the problems is that the number of overseas RYA schools is growing very fast and I don't think the RYA has quite caught up with some of the problems this throws up.

As regards complaints about your course I would encourage you please to take this up with the school, and if they don't deal with it in a satisfactory way, then with the RYA. Schools must use qualified Yachtmasters to instruct, but not all of them are qualified Instructors, and this sometimes means standards are not kept up. There is no way for the school to know that you've had a problem if you don't report it. They will be keen to keep their standards high (or so I'd hope) and should be grateful to you for pointing out what went wrong.

Can you simply take an ICC test in Ireland? They last less than a day. That would seem the cheapest and quickest solution.

Regards
Melody

 

[GTom]

Hi

Did you specifically tell the school that you wanted an ICC when you booked the course? If so, you possible have some claim on them, but not if you simply booked for a DS skipper course and didn't tell them until afterwards.

We run an RYA sailing school in Greece and, unless a student specifically mentions to me that they want an ICC I wouldn't assume that they did, as the RYA DS qualification is higher than ICC.

As a result of your experience I will make sure from now on that anyone applying for DS knows the restrictions.

One of the problems is that the number of overseas RYA schools is growing very fast and I don't think the RYA has quite caught up with some of the problems this throws up.

As regards complaints about your course I would encourage you please to take this up with the school, and if they don't deal with it in a satisfactory way, then with the RYA. Schools must use qualified Yachtmasters to instruct, but not all of them are qualified Instructors, and this sometimes means standards are not kept up. There is no way for the school to know that you've had a problem if you don't report it. They will be keen to keep their standards high (or so I'd hope) and should be grateful to you for pointing out what went wrong.

Can you simply take an ICC test in Ireland? They last less than a day. That would seem the cheapest and quickest solution.

Regards
Melody

First, sorry to revive an ancient thread but to my information the situation hasn't improved over the past decade. I am also in this trap, got a coastal skipper but not being Brit can't get an ICC. More to it, no "simple test" in my country, one has to go through all until around Yachtmaster Offshore level ($$$+$ and time).
Being in the Med, where countries demand licenses I think students should be advised what their license is good for and what are they eligible for...