Worthless ICC?

[Cookie Jar]

The UK and particularly RYA has always supported anything that makes it easy for sailors and their yachts to travel around the world easily, perhaps because for a long time many of such voyagers were British.

And rightfully so.

And on the other hand of the spectrum (if it would be today) Portuguese discoverer's would not even be able to leave the dock without a unkown-purpose-dedicated-license or a pre-voyage risk assessment from 3 different entities... plus a life raft... plus 3 sets of flares that needed a special purchase authorization from the local mine-squad department (this one is actually real today in Portugal).
I bet they are all revolving in their tombs now

 

[GTom]

And on the other hand of the spectrum (if it would be today) Portuguese discoverer's would not even be able to leave the dock without a unkown-purpose-dedicated-license or a pre-voyage risk assessment from 3 different entities... plus a life raft... plus 3 sets of flares that needed a special purchase authorization from the local mine-squad department (this one is actually real today in Portugal).
I bet they are all revolving in their tombs now

It's all about nanny state needing cash-cows, nothing more...

Croatia does
http://orvasyachting.com/documents/...d-for-operating-Croatian-boats-and-yachts.pdf

and I'm almost sure every other country as well...but it's a damn detective work and usually in the local language.

Spain requires the skipper to hold a license from his/her country of citizenship or residence. (Royal Decree 875/2014). They do accept RYA certifications, but only from British nationals/residents. E.g. according to the law a German skipper would be in trouble with "just an RYA YM-offshore".

Of course I do hear whistles that officials don't care, or specifically ask for an ICC while it's nowhere mentioned in the Spanish legislation (they're not UNECE-40), but the law seems quite clear.

Are you sure that the Croatian list is "cross-compatible" - meaning that e.g. a Polish skipper is fine with an RYA DS+VHF? In Spain doesn't seem so.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

How can you possibly come to that conclusion? The ICC and licencing in general is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, but the UN as you very well know. As for insularity nothing could be further from the truth. You can gain an RYA qualification in many countries other than UK and you do not have to be a citizen and the RYA is one of the few organisations that can issue an ICC to non citizens. How is this insular? and it will not change when we leave the EU. Just look at the problems of licencing that people on this forum who live in other states have with licencing and count your blessings that you live in this country.

What I said regarding "insular self destruction" is a comment on Brexit, which is a result of the suspicion and distrust of anything originating outside Britain, feelings which are to be found in many of the posts in this thread, for example where posters have been told on a number of occasions that the ICC emanates from the UN, but new posts then subsequently attribute it to the EU.
There is nothing particularly insular about the RYA, and indeed RYA-affiliated sailing schools in, for instance Spain or Ireland can award ICCs to residents of those countries (but not to Britons going to those countries to do an ICC course/test)
I don't actually live in the UK, as you can see from the details at the top of my posts, but in Ireland, where we enjoy exactly the same freedom from compulsory licenses, but, being an instructor, I am a firm believer in training, with or without the piece of paper awarded at the end.

 

[Portofino]

I sat and passed the French permit d Mer many years ago as a condition from my wife at the time of buying a Sunseeker and keeping on the Cote d Azur
1 week ish course from a French Canadien in English
Basically. Could not relate to any RYA stuff and knowing the Fr , it reminds me if that school ground game of " top trumps "
I know which card in Fr I would prefer to hold
I have flashed it several times and get a " tries Bien " back from officialdom
Brexit has no fears for me .

 

[pandos]

What I said regarding "insular self destruction" is a comment on Brexit, which is a result of the suspicion and distrust of anything originating outside Britain, feelings which are to be found in many of the posts in this thread, for example where posters have been told on a number of occasions that the ICC emanates from the UN, but new posts then subsequently attribute it to the EU.
There is nothing particularly insular about the RYA, and indeed RYA-affiliated sailing schools in, for instance Spain or Ireland can award ICCs to residents of those countries (but not to Britons going to those countries to do an ICC course/test)
I don't actually live in the UK, as you can see from the details at the top of my posts, but in Ireland, where we enjoy exactly the same freedom from compulsory licenses, but, being an instructor, I am a firm believer in training, with or without the piece of paper awarded at the end.

The whole thing is actually anti european and an example of anti competitive protectionism driven by those in the inner circle, ( usually referred to as stakeholders, ie those that can make money from restrictive practices and the representatives of the relevant government dept or quango)

The RYA cannot issue an ICC, nor can any other approved body from any country that has signed up, to an individual who is neither a resident of their country or a citizen, (except with special permission).

The effect is that the ISA and its associated training businesses can rip us off with prices. With the complicity of the various government Depts.

In any professional area uk or european qualifications would be accepted to use in Ireland or in the UK, but this ICC is practically beyond a joke if you consider its purpose is to allow use of a foreign boat in a foreign country, there is no logical reason for the restrictions based on nationality or residency other than protectionism, which is being exploited more and more over here.

one of my mental exercises at the moment is to ensure my boat is utterly compliant licence wise before I launch it (been on the dry for years) but the whole setup is just a money making racket...

I am considering chucking my DSC radio (which is a US model so not ce marked ) in the bin and reverting to original Sailor set so my SRC licence will be sufficient, I can have a plb without an mmsi ( which I must now register with ComReg) and my Epirb which is already registered with the American coast guard...

I just cannot bring myself to pay the bones of €300 and have my intelligence insulted for hours so that I am qualified to "lift up the cover and press the red switch"...and buy a new DSC radio, on top of the €100 for a ships radio licence..... Id rather have a new liferaft....or radar...

I can have english citizenship so perhaps a RYA yacht course in the Sun with an ICC (might even get a red duster....,)

 

[Uricanejack]

Wow quit an old thread.

There are quite a few successful sailing schools teaching the RYA standard aimed primarily at British yachtsmen in other countries.
Which is fine and dandy if all you want is a course for your own interest.

The confusion appears to be the complication of completing a government recognised licence in a foreign country. Which you pretty much can't do for almost any other kind of official government licence.

If I understand it right. As a Canadian. Or American. I could do a YM, In almost any sunny little island I choose. With or without tide. Do an on line test to get a commercial endorsement and be able to get a MCA, RYA certificate to run a commercial yacht up to X tons. Which would not be valid in Canada or US.

But I could not get an RYA ICC.

I suppose its logical somehow.

 

[prv]

But I could not get an RYA ICC.

Indeed you couldn't, because there's no such thing as an RYA ICC.

Pete

 

[GTom]

Actually as a Canadian or American you can get an ICC issued by the RYA, neither the US nor Canada are Unece-40, therefore their citizens and residents can apply for an ICC Just to add a bit of complexity and "fairness" of the procedure.

 

[Tranona]

What I said regarding "insular self destruction" is a comment on Brexit, which is a result of the suspicion and distrust of anything originating outside Britain,

That is a very strange view as to what Brexit is about. Depending of course on your world view it is about exactly the opposite given that it is about escaping from the protectionist strictures of the EU in favour of a return to being open to the rest of the world - that is if it actually turns out that way.

 

[pandos]

you could if you were resident in the UK,

 

[GTom]

you could if you were resident in the UK,

Or any non-UNECE40 countries. I was wondering if an Estonian E-residency counts

 

[Tranona]

The whole thing is actually anti european and an example of anti competitive protectionism driven by those in the inner circle, ( usually referred to as stakeholders, ie those that can make money from restrictive practices and the representatives of the relevant government dept or quango)

The RYA cannot issue an ICC, nor can any other approved body from any country that has signed up, to an individual who is neither a resident of their country or a citizen, (except with special permission).

The effect is that the ISA and its associated training businesses can rip us off with prices. With the complicity of the various government Depts.

In any professional area uk or european qualifications would be accepted to use in Ireland or in the UK, but this ICC is practically beyond a joke if you consider its purpose is to allow use of a foreign boat in a foreign country, there is no logical reason for the restrictions based on nationality or residency other than protectionism, which is being exploited more and more over here.

one of my mental exercises at the moment is to ensure my boat is utterly compliant licence wise before I launch it (been on the dry for years) but the whole setup is just a money making racket...

I am considering chucking my DSC radio (which is a US model so not ce marked ) in the bin and reverting to original Sailor set so my SRC licence will be sufficient, I can have a plb without an mmsi ( which I must now register with ComReg) and my Epirb which is already registered with the American coast guard...

I just cannot bring myself to pay the bones of €300 and have my intelligence insulted for hours so that I am qualified to "lift up the cover and press the red switch"...and buy a new DSC radio, on top of the €100 for a ships radio licence..... Id rather have a new liferaft....or radar...

I can have english citizenship so perhaps a RYA yacht course in the Sun with an ICC (might even get a red duster....,)

You seem very confused. First you claim it is "anti european" - but on what basis, given that the main driving force was CEVNI which is just about the most "European" organisation in the marine world! Then you complain about not being able to use a non EC marked radio. Now tell us who is behind the the need for CE marking - yes, of course the wonderful EU. Hows that for a good bit of protectionism - and very much loved by both bureaucrats and manufacturers as it prevents us legally using cheaper (but exactly the same apart from the sticker) from the great satan USA. Then ask yourself why the short range certificate costs so much. Of course our good German friends who insist on a totally unnecessary extended test if they are going to recognise it, forcing the MCA/RYA to double the cost of the basic test and the time to take it.

You don't seem to know the background to the ICC. It is not an independent qualification, just an endorsement by the national government that the citizen is competent at the required level set by the Resolution - in exactly the same way as an International Driving Licence.

As you are an "English" citizen then if you are qualified you can apply to the RYA for a UK government authorised ICC, either based on an existing recognised qualification or by submitting yourself to a test of your competence.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

That is a very strange view as to what Brexit is about. Depending of course on your world view it is about exactly the opposite given that it is about escaping from the protectionist strictures of the EU in favour of a return to being open to the rest of the world - that is if it actually turns out that way.

Sorry Tranona, I composed a comprehensive answer to this but decided to delete it in the interests of not straying too far from the substantive matter. Politics is better discussed elswhere.

 

[pandos]

Not confused at all. The european ideal is an open free market where qualifications and experience from other juristictions are accepted and respected equally. The ICC is plainly not one of those situations.

The ce marking is used for anti competitive practices which not part of the european ideal. especially when the product is in all likelihood identical and made in neither the US nor Europe.

The MCA/RYA test charges and licence fees even following the German interventions significantly cheaper than ours, for essentially the same thing. I think £65 for online course, £60 for test free license.


An international drivers licence is obtained by showing your existing licence, no new test required, and cost €15. the ICC is €100 on top of the exam fee but cheaper for ISA members...why is an internationally required document significently cheaper for a subset of individuals...

I know I can apply to the RYA .... that is one of the "BS" things about the whole thing, I will still be examined to the same standard, will still be just as bad or good a boat handler but simply because I have an entitlement to a second citizenship I can have a better deal and a bigger choice of providers and venues.... we are all europeans (for now) the treatment of citizens differently simply because of their country is not european.

 

[Uricanejack]

I thought the ICC was free with RYA membership. If you have a day skipper.
Unless you are Irish

 

[emmalina]

Amusing as I am a Brit and did my ICC in Dublin.. Very quick and painless as it was a direct assessment thing... Only ever got asked for it once in Croatia in 15years Asia don't seem to need anything LOL Often displayed by the charter yachts!

 

[Cookie Jar]

An international drivers licence is obtained by showing your existing licence, no new test required, and cost €15.

You are quite right, but driving licenses and commercial shipping, just two examples out of hundreds, is fully regulated and has 100% recognized equivalence in any EU country... basically because directly (or indirectly) they are important for almost every single citizen. Only a really small percentage are recreational boaters and from that already tiny minority, only a handful move around and within the EU... and those (us) are the only ones that really face (and get stuck) any big challenges and absurd situations. Recreational boating is not regulate to 100% nor its equivalence is really mandatory (although the EU recommends it). Apparently this was left to be decided by each member state and with a couple of exceptions has been working on a reciprocity basis...

we are all europeans

...some more than others.

Just to give you another "not-so-european boating" example, I wanted to register my boat in Portugal. The boat is from the 80's and was previously sailing under Italian flag, so fully registered as Italy requires registration.

Portugal asked me for:
CE mark
Certificate of compliance in Portuguese
Owner manual in Portuguese
Manufacturer's certification

I argued that the boat did not had any of those for the obvious reasons, but it was currently registered in another EU country.
The answer I got back was "if you don't have any, then the boat simply cannot be registered... but you can, of course, hire the services of a classification agency and come back with a CE mark"

I guess that if the boat was originally from the UK or The Netherlands or any other country that dos not require registration, they would even confiscate it. I mean, does it even exist without a registration? How dare you treat boats like bicycles?

Flying Dutch now...

 

[Tranona]

Not confused at all. The european ideal is an open free market where qualifications and experience from other juristictions are accepted and respected equally. The ICC is plainly not one of those situations.

The ce marking is used for anti competitive practices which not part of the european ideal. especially when the product is in all likelihood identical and made in neither the US nor Europe.

The MCA/RYA test charges and licence fees even following the German interventions significantly cheaper than ours, for essentially the same thing. I think £65 for online course, £60 for test free license.


An international drivers licence is obtained by showing your existing licence, no new test required, and cost €15. the ICC is €100 on top of the exam fee but cheaper for ISA members...why is an internationally required document significently cheaper for a subset of individuals...

I know I can apply to the RYA .... that is one of the "BS" things about the whole thing, I will still be examined to the same standard, will still be just as bad or good a boat handler but simply because I have an entitlement to a second citizenship I can have a better deal and a bigger choice of providers and venues.... we are all europeans (for now) the treatment of citizens differently simply because of their country is not european.

Your complaint is with the Irish government, not with the principle of the ICC - which once again is NOT a qualification, but is an attempt to actually do what the EU has failed to do - that is construct a mechanism for cross state recognition of qualifications.

Given that there has been a failure to achieve such recognition of professional and vocational qualifications there is little chance of any progress on discretionary qualifications for leisure activities. At the risk of repeating myself, maritime affairs are in general nothing to do with the EU, and while individual states have control they are unlikely to consider any form of recognition. A prime example is the short range certificates where German citizens where coming to the EU to take the UK test because it was easier (but still complied with the international standard) and cheaper. One would think that the first thing the German authorities would do to stop this is to bring their test into line with the UK. Of course this did not happen, but they forced the UK to come in line with them with a threat of non recognition.

What hope is there of mutual recognition when the powerful dictate to others? Having spent a big part of my life involved in negotiating with European universities on mutual recognition (with some success) I know the difficulties, and admire the efforts of those who did manage to get the ICC to its current position. Pity though that implementation is left to individual states with all the lack of consistency that results.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry Tranona, I composed a comprehensive answer to this but decided to delete it in the interests of not straying too far from the substantive matter. Politics is better discussed elswhere.

I agree, although difficult to avoid politics completely on a subject such as this simply because much of the problem is political. It is a challenge to keep the political bits focussed on what directly affects the subject and by extension boaters.

 

[GTom]

Pity though that implementation is left to individual states with all the lack of consistency that results.

That's a key element. (politics deleted) One country requires YM offshore level, other DS level, yet both sail the same seas. Any sense? None.