Worthless ICC?

[pandos]

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-...t-professionals/qualifications-recognition_en

I'd say the eu had come considerably further than your post suggests as regards recognition of professions.

whether or not the Icc is a qualification is a semantic matter. to get one from the appointed gate keepers requires an examination. the gate keepers in Ireland are the Isa who will not recognise a qualification from abroad. instead they will insist on testing themselves. had the likes ofvthe Rya and the isa advocated for proper mutual recognition rather than becoming the responsible body and getting paid for their trouble. The system would be more likely to be better.

 

[lpdsn]

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-...t-professionals/qualifications-recognition_en

I'd say the eu had come considerably further than your post suggests as regards recognition of professions.

whether or not the Icc is a qualification is a semantic matter. to get one from the appointed gate keepers requires an examination. the gate keepers in Ireland are the Isa who will not recognise a qualification from abroad. instead they will insist on testing themselves. had the likes ofvthe Rya and the isa advocated for proper mutual recognition rather than becoming the responsible body and getting paid for their trouble. The system would be more likely to be better.

You can blame the ISA for that. But if they weren't protectionist everyone would just get RYA quals and their training scheme would just fade away.

 

[Uricanejack]

Your complaint is with the Irish government, not with the principle of the ICC - which once again is NOT a qualification, but is an attempt to actually do what the EU has failed to do - that is construct a mechanism for cross state recognition of qualifications.

Given that there has been a failure to achieve such recognition of professional and vocational qualifications there is little chance of any progress on discretionary qualifications for leisure activities. At the risk of repeating myself, maritime affairs are in general nothing to do with the EU, and while individual states have control they are unlikely to consider any form of recognition. A prime example is the short range certificates where German citizens where coming to the EU to take the UK test because it was easier (but still complied with the international standard) and cheaper. One would think that the first thing the German authorities would do to stop this is to bring their test into line with the UK. Of course this did not happen, but they forced the UK to come in line with them with a threat of non recognition.

What hope is there of mutual recognition when the powerful dictate to others? Having spent a big part of my life involved in negotiating with European universities on mutual recognition (with some success) I know the difficulties, and admire the efforts of those who did manage to get the ICC to its current position. Pity though that implementation is left to individual states with all the lack of consistency that results.

I get the impression the RYA issued ICC is a qualification.

The UN resolution 40. Sets a standard for the ICC. Individual states create the criteria, exam and administer the ICC. The State administration then issues an ICC certifying the individual has met the qualifying requirements for the ICC.

The UK have chosen to have the RYA administer the ICC. The official stamp of approval as an actual government recognised licence or certificate is the critical difference between the Day Skipper and the ICC. Without the stamp of approval, why would anyone bother?
The Day Skipper exceeds the required standard for the ICC so the RYA are able to issue the ICC the Day Skippers. So all the ICC does is certify the Day Skipper meets or exceeds an internationally recognised standard of qualification. Unless you choose to do the actual ICC exam and an ICC certificate is issued.

The odd thing about the ICC. Is it walks like, swims like and quacks like an EU initiative. Even though the resolution was enacted by the UN not the EU. Surly it was the EU who proposed the ICC to the UN and the countries adopting resolution 40 are predominantly EU.

For most people sailing their own boat even visiting other EU countries. There is only a requirement to meet their own flag states requirements. So the Skipper of a British registered yacht requires no certification for Pleasure use or a commercial YM for commercial use.
The problem only comes up if you wish to charter and skipper a yacht registered in a EU or Non EU country which requires an ICC. Since most of them have a long list of other acceptable qualifications. Such as Day Skipper. Is it really a problem?

I suppose its a marketing problem for the RYA and RYA sailing schools in exotic non British locations. Marketing their product to non British sailors. Even so, I would have thought most people choose to get an RYA qualification based on the RYA not the ICC.

Then there is the odd situation where some from one country owns and registers a boat in another country he or she is not resident in.
If you do this you need to meet the requirements for the country the boat is registered in. The ICC doesn't change this requirement.

If you then import the boat back into the country of residence for use there. Its not surprising the country of residence calls foul. If a British issued ICC does not meet the same requirements of their own national system.

 

[lpdsn]

Surly it was the EU who proposed the ICC to the UN and the countries adopting resolution 40 are predominantly EU.

Predates them I believe.

 

[macd]

Predates them I believe.

Its first manifestation considerably predates the EU but not the EEC. Regardless, it was very much a European initiative, it's roots lying in a desire for internationally-recognized qualifications on the Danube/Rhine navigations. ICC became the full 'Resolution 40' version only in 1998, after the EEC became the EU, but before its expansion into Eastern Europe.

 

[Tranona]

I get the impression the RYA issued ICC is a qualification.

That is just your impression. It is what its name implies - a Certificate of Competence. You can gain it in 2 ways. either because you have an examined qualification that includes assessment of those competences, or you can be assessed just for those.

You are also making the mistake like many others of treating "EU" and "Europe(ean)" as the same thing and they are not. As I have pointed out many times the EU has nothing to do with maritime affairs which in general are covered by international law and treaties. It is true that there have been attempts by politicians and campaigners to create EU structures for the Recreational Craft sector they have all been rejected with the exception of the RCD - which is a trade issue as opposed to regulation of the use of leisure craft.

It is true that one of the major sponsors of the ICC was CEVNI, which is a European organisation but nothing to do with the EU.

Many people, including those who should know better, particularly politicians see everything European as EU either because they think being European is "good" and therefore EU is good, or the other way round and both are "bad". The reality is there is good and bad in both, but overriding all this is the fact that individual European states still ignore many things from the EU if they think it is not in their interests. For example on the subject of professional recognition, has anybody tried to get a job as an academic in a French or Italian university on the same terms as a French or Italian national? Just compare the number of non UK nationals teaching and researching in our universities with non nationals in any other EU state university. Or the number of non national qualified healthcare professionals in the NHS with any other state.

BTW your observations about charter boats is wide of the mark. AFAIK the only country that has a list of qualifications is Croatia and they include the ICC so making the list rather redundant. The others that require a certificate of competence such as Greece prefer the ICC for the very reason it was introduced. It is internationally recognised, is printed in several languages, has a common format and a photo. Much easier for an official to check rather than going through a long list.

 

[GTom]

the countries adopting resolution 40 are predominantly EU.

How many non-EU countries demand a stamped certification of competence for non-business sailing? (Motorboats are of course a different matter)

 

[GHA]

How many non-EU countries demand a stamped certification of competence for non-business sailing? (Motorboats are of course a different matter)

Must be few. Even in the EU it very much depends on the the guy in the uniform, especially if you re unfortunate enough to get involved in any kind of dispute - which is where, IMHO, the real value of an ICC comes in. They'll most likely be aware of that piece of paper even if it isn't in any government list. The real world is a variable place.

 

[Cookie Jar]

The problem only comes up if you wish to charter and skipper a yacht registered in a EU or Non EU country which requires an ICC. Since most of them have a long list of other acceptable qualifications. Such as Day Skipper. Is it really a problem?


Then there is the odd situation where some from one country owns and registers a boat in another country he or she is not resident in.
If you do this you need to meet the requirements for the country the boat is registered in. The ICC doesn't change this requirement.

If you then import the boat back into the country of residence for use there. Its not surprising the country of residence calls foul.

You've missed another problematic situation:

Skipper your own boat in a country that is not your own... but where your official residence actually is.

If, of course, you are unfortunate enough to come from a red-tape country and into another red(ish)-tape one. In my unfortunate case had nothing to do with what flag was flying on the boat (in fact I fly Dutch), but a license problem only. The ICC was the one and ONLY solution.

Like Tranona said, the ICC was in principle a good idea, but fails to a certain extent (in some cases miserably) because some individual states do not want to lose control (aka letting the cash cow run away). Mutual and undisputed recognition would be the only real solution...but we're not going to see that ever.

Another crazy regulation that is interpreted in different ways by each state, and also relevant for boaters, is the B96 driving license (extension to 4250kg combined weight). Some countries require an exam, some require one single lesson, some require nothing at all.

 

[GTom]

because some individual states do not want to lose control (aka letting the cash cow run away).

Exactly.

 

[Tranona]

Exactly.

Not sure it is really anything to do with the money, it is more about control of the individual by the state. Derives from history, either from dictatorial government or Roman law which attempts to have a rule for everything written down, or a combination of both. This is in contrast to common law countries such as the UK where the law generally prohibits certain actions - that is tells you what you can't do rather than having a prescriptive list of what you can (or are allowed) to do. Once you understand the difference you can appreciate the antipathy towards the EU expressed by many in the UK. For us in the context of leisure boating it explains why there is so little control and compulsion in the UK. Long may it be that way.

 

[Seven Spades]

To me the RYA's attitude makes perfect sense. The value of the ICC is that it is recognised by foreign authorities. Foreign authorities in a country where there is compulsory licensing are not going to be happy if their own nationals start doing the ICC exam to avoid having to do their own domestic exam which may be much more stringent (the ICC is not stringent at all, and is not intended to be).

People should not be able to 'shop around' for the easiest exam. A Frenchman can't avoid getting a French licence by paying a few dollars to an institution in Bongoland to give him a bit of paper.

I don't agree, the idea is that we are all supposed to recognise each others qualifications. If anything the ICC shoudl be residence based not nationality based. If a Frenchman lives in the UK and wants to drive he can do the test and be issued with a British driving licence. To tell a French man he can't drive in the UK but must return to his home nation and take the test their would be nonsense don't you think? So why should the ICC be any different?

 

[Uricanejack]

I am under the impression even a Frenchman can get an RYA issued ICC if he does his Day Skipper in the UK
Provided he is resident in the UK.
He may still be required to get a French certification when he returns to reside in France.

 

[Uricanejack]

I was just looking at my local regulations:
A Canadian requires a PBOC and must be over 16 if the boat is over 10hp.
A visiting boat must comply with own countries regulations.
Unless they stay in Canada for more than 45 days then a PBOC is required.

But to rent or charter a boat nothing is required but a credit card and a dockside checklist.

I think the fee for the online test is 40 bucks

 

[GTom]

But to rent or charter a boat nothing is required but a credit card and a dockside checklist.

Weird.

I think the fee for the online test is 40 bucks

Compare that with the half-year and multi-thousand EUR costs in e.g. Spain...

 

[macd]

I am under the impression even a Frenchman can get an RYA issued ICC if he does his Day Skipper in the UK
Provided he is resident in the UK.

I daresay that under EU law it would be illegally discriminatory if it were otherwise.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I don't agree, the idea is that we are all supposed to recognise each others qualifications. If anything the ICC shoudl be residence based not nationality based. If a Frenchman lives in the UK and wants to drive he can do the test and be issued with a British driving licence. To tell a French man he can't drive in the UK but must return to his home nation and take the test their would be nonsense don't you think? So why should the ICC be any different?

It IS residence based:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Competence

 

[macd]

For info:
I've just stumbled across a document I downloaded aeons ago from the European Boating Industry site, dated 2014, which summarises the history of ICC and gives detailed information on how it applies throughout Europe. At the time the EBI were pushing for a more homogeneous approach to ICC issuance and recognition. Quite informative:
http://www.norboat.no/file/0f326ef445be68362413787c85529ae8/140213 Update on boat license_ICC_v3MC/

 

[Tranona]

I am under the impression even a Frenchman can get an RYA issued ICC if he does his Day Skipper in the UK
Provided he is resident in the UK.
He may still be required to get a French certification when he returns to reside in France.

That is not correct as France has adopted Resolution 40 so only the french government can issue an ICC to a French citizen even if he is resident in the UK or has a qualifying RYA certificate.

The RYA can only issue ICCs to citizens of states that have not signed up.

As ever all this is on the RYA site.

 

[GTom]

That is not correct as France has adopted Resolution 40 so only the french government can issue an ICC to a French citizen even if he is resident in the UK or has a qualifying RYA certificate.

The RYA can only issue ICCs to citizens of states that have not signed up.

As ever all this is on the RYA site.

Wrong, the residence state can also issue an icc, bit similarly to a drivers licenses (that can only been obtained in the residence state regardless of citizenship - at least with icc you have a little more room).

The RYA is authorised by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) to issue a UK ICC to the nationals of any country EXCEPT individuals who are a national of another UNECE member state which has accepted Resolution 40 and who are also resident in another UNECE member state which has accepted Resolution 40, unless the RYA has been given written permission to do so by the Government of the relevant country.

http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/icc/Pages/who-can-get-an-icc-from-the-rya.aspx