Richard.C
Active member
Thanks but my question was if anyone on here actually had an issue with diesel over a winter?
Winter layup - new brim or don't brim diesel advice
- Thread starter ari
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kashurst
Well-known member
One winter no, but how many winters will it take to develop a case of diesel bug or waxing issues from older diesel? One year is unlikely to matter, multiple years will. Old diesel separates and causes hard starting, excess smoke etc. I never brimmed the tank in 22 years. I have had UK based boats with no diesel bug and never any sign of water, I have had med and UK based boats with diesel bug and traces of water. I take the view that diesel bug is a problem we have to live with and use additives and check/drain the tank of any water regularly. Old diesel does go off. So brim the tank and you risk separation and age issues especially if its a cold winter, but possibly avoid water issues, Or leave the tank part filled, reduce separation issues as filling will stir it up and mix new fuel with old, but you might get a dose of diesel bug if you don't add a treatment of some sort.
I wonder if uninsulated steel boats have a bigger problem with fuel tank condensation as the cold gets in to the boat very rapidly, where as fibreglass boats tend to insulate the tanks.
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Richard.C
Active member
I get the bug and water concern, I am trying to understand if in real life purely the age of diesel is really going to matter. With good shelf life of 6-12 months and a couple of tank fills during the year the age related question is probably very minor compared to bug issues.
kashurst
Well-known member
If you have mechanical fuel injection, yes I would agree with you, forget ageing over 6 - 12 months. If you have modern common rail electronic injection I wouldn't. Tricky isn't it.
Rappey
Well-known member
It's quite interesting the different additives people choose to add to their fuel which makes me wonder if some have actually read what it does and how.
This is roughly what I've concluded but only based on what I've recently read and I could be totally misinformed?
Some target water ,others target the bacteria. There are emulsifiers, these absorb the water into the fuel to be burnt off as steam . Demulsifiers make the water drop out of the fuel .
It's suggested that these types can cause long term corrosion damage.
It's suggested that long term use or over dosing can cause the bacteria to build up an immunity to the treatments.
The dead bacteria drops to the bottom of the tank causing the slime.
Fuel set - is an emulsifier but doesn't state it kills bacteria or deals with slime?
Marine 16 - kills bacteria But again it may appear that you have to deal with the slime and water at the bottom of your tank.
Grotamar- same as above.
Soltron- an enzyme that kills the bacteria and eats the sludge but does not deal with the water.
If you mix different brands is there a possibility they react or cancel each other out?
This is roughly what I've concluded but only based on what I've recently read and I could be totally misinformed?
Some target water ,others target the bacteria. There are emulsifiers, these absorb the water into the fuel to be burnt off as steam . Demulsifiers make the water drop out of the fuel .
It's suggested that these types can cause long term corrosion damage.
It's suggested that long term use or over dosing can cause the bacteria to build up an immunity to the treatments.
The dead bacteria drops to the bottom of the tank causing the slime.
Fuel set - is an emulsifier but doesn't state it kills bacteria or deals with slime?
Marine 16 - kills bacteria But again it may appear that you have to deal with the slime and water at the bottom of your tank.
Grotamar- same as above.
Soltron- an enzyme that kills the bacteria and eats the sludge but does not deal with the water.
If you mix different brands is there a possibility they react or cancel each other out?
KREW2
Well-known member
I will use my boat all year round, albeit not so much in the winter. When the opportunity arises I top the tanks up, whatever other problems may come my way I don't like the idea of water in my fuel tank. Even when I used to winterize I brimmed them them, surely diesel wont get too bad in 5 months. Anyway I have never had a problem with the bug.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
So why were they telling us to purchase "Diesel Fuel Complete (DFC) "& a desicant breather in the fuel line
then ? They know full well that by carefull advertising they will eventually get one to purchase their products. So when you fill up is there a chance you will add Marine 16? If the answer is "Yes" then they have hooked you.
So do not tell me it is NOT advertising. BUT, i accept that companies have to sell their products & I am not blaming them for trying. I am just pointing out the naivety of some customers
ari
Well-known member
So do not tell me it is NOT advertising. BUT, i accept that companies have to sell their products & I am not blaming them for trying. I am just pointing out the naivety of some customers
No one is telling you that. But the fact that they want to promote or raise awareness of their product doesn't automatically make their advice inaccurate or invalid.
If you had a boat charter company and wrote a blog about the 10 best places to take a charter boat in your area, you might do it hoping to raise awareness of chartering and of your business and of the area in which you operate, but you're not going to put bad advice about where to go into that blog, why would you?
kashurst
Well-known member
I have tried most possibly all the makes you quoted - I understand you can mix them and no they do not cancel each other out. I don't like the emulsifier concept, however it does help "mop up" any water that will inevitably get into the tank. Diesel is very hydroscopic and absorbs atmospheric water. However depending on temperature etc the water will settle out, So however hard people try to stop water getting in to their tanks eventually it will, albeit hopefully only in a small way. Or in a big way if you go to a certain fuel pontoon near me, but that's another story. Best solution is to use the boat often and all year if you can and keep replacing the fuel.
Rappey
Well-known member
I primarily fill up from gosport marina (premier) who add soltron to their fuel. Never ever had a problem.
Mdl state they only sell real marine diesel , eliminating this bio shelf life problem.
Mdl state they only sell real marine diesel , eliminating this bio shelf life problem.
Portofino
Well-known member
Just accept water in fuel and separation of new fangled low sulphur is a given , a dead cert .Period .
Irrespective of how you leave it over the winter , your useage pattern some on the hard etc .
If you have tank drain cocks .
If you have clear bowls on working centrifugal primaries
If you have Water In Fuel alarms on the primaries
Then it’s a none issue ,
Next time anyones in Loano , please come and visit me .I will give you a bucket !
Fill my filler with a bucket load of sea water before cast off .
All that will happen by the time you drink a cuppa or one of my cold beers I would have drained it off , or got a WIF and then shot down in the ER and opened a racor drain tap .
Any left and the ‘ snake oil “ ( actual agri diesel additive ) which is constantly dosed at every fill up should deal what’s left .
None CR btw .
Irrespective of how you leave it over the winter , your useage pattern some on the hard etc .
If you have tank drain cocks .
If you have clear bowls on working centrifugal primaries
If you have Water In Fuel alarms on the primaries
Then it’s a none issue ,
Next time anyones in Loano , please come and visit me .I will give you a bucket !
Fill my filler with a bucket load of sea water before cast off .
All that will happen by the time you drink a cuppa or one of my cold beers I would have drained it off , or got a WIF and then shot down in the ER and opened a racor drain tap .
Any left and the ‘ snake oil “ ( actual agri diesel additive ) which is constantly dosed at every fill up should deal what’s left .
None CR btw .
Momac
Well-known member
I didn't
Portofino
Well-known member
Let’s turn this 180 degrees , arse about tit .
How do you , how can your court diesel fuel issues , ie show stoppers , potentially expensive show stoppers with your boat over the winter ?
Bear in mind the recently introduction of low sulphur fuel .
How can I get the bug for Christmas, I want the diesel bug , I want to spend on my engines?
What should i not do ?
How do you , how can your court diesel fuel issues , ie show stoppers , potentially expensive show stoppers with your boat over the winter ?
Bear in mind the recently introduction of low sulphur fuel .
How can I get the bug for Christmas, I want the diesel bug , I want to spend on my engines?
What should i not do ?
Momac
Well-known member
Not sure exactly but must be about a dozen years since diesel became ultra low sulphur in the UK
On the other hand the once suggested absence of FAME in marine diesel seems to be probably a more recent thing but now absence of FAME best assumed a thing of the past
Portofino
Well-known member
Yep , can’t be bothered digging deep ( via Monsieur Google) into the detail but todays fuel is different to the extent that one has to be proactive .You can’t just fill up or not ( water condensation) and forget .
” because it’s worked previously or my dad did “ in a ostrich syndrome kinda way .Common on here by the sound of sone posters ^^ !
There is “ snake oil” additives , and bits of kit like WIF s , tank drain taps , centrifugal primary filters , clear bowls in the tool box .
A tool box open to all to mitigate.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I did not say you did . I just said, "do not"
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jrudge
Well-known member
Nope. Never treat it etc. in the med
Rappey
Well-known member
Earlier this year yachting monthly published an article where Peter Weide , co-director of Marine 16 says you should keep your tanks topped up !
Guess they changed their minds ?
Biodiesel warning: boat owners advised to take action - Yachting Monthly
Assassin
Well-known member
here are many factors at play and the fuel tanks made from metals can become hotter and colder and this creates condensation which can condense into water and fall to the bottom og your tank.
Water is always present in all diesel fuel and we have to accept it, what we dont know is the quantity of water and the time of year is important as cooler weather means more moist air entering the storage tanks.
Bio elements of both diesel and petrol seperates out from the fuel and E10 seperates out in as little as 3-4 weeks and in diesels they never provide the full bio element hence "up to 7%" and the more bio element the quicker it seperates and it can seperate in around 3 months depending upon bio content.
Other factors come into play and acid from the removal of fatty acids methyl esters is well known but up to 8 other acids can form in your fuel system and the damage plastics and rubbers and some eat various metals and if they reach critical proportions they can eat through a fuel line laid dormant for many weeks and you end op with your fuel in the bilge.
So basically it comes down to several things:
The quantity of water in your diesel when you fill up.
Where in the world you fill up and the quality of fuel you put in.
If your fuel tank/s are made from steel and exposed to a wide temperature variation.
My advice is simple, you makes your own choice and live with the consequences.
My logic is simple, if you fuel up with diesel with a high water content when the resulting airspace could produce sufficient moisture to condense into water droplets which would become a problem then why take the risk, I prefer to fill the tanks and treat the diesel with a good product and not the snake oil types and if possible run the engines for about an houe every month as the returning fuel agitates it sufficiently to prevent the bio seperation.
Water is always present in all diesel fuel and we have to accept it, what we dont know is the quantity of water and the time of year is important as cooler weather means more moist air entering the storage tanks.
Bio elements of both diesel and petrol seperates out from the fuel and E10 seperates out in as little as 3-4 weeks and in diesels they never provide the full bio element hence "up to 7%" and the more bio element the quicker it seperates and it can seperate in around 3 months depending upon bio content.
Other factors come into play and acid from the removal of fatty acids methyl esters is well known but up to 8 other acids can form in your fuel system and the damage plastics and rubbers and some eat various metals and if they reach critical proportions they can eat through a fuel line laid dormant for many weeks and you end op with your fuel in the bilge.
So basically it comes down to several things:
The quantity of water in your diesel when you fill up.
Where in the world you fill up and the quality of fuel you put in.
If your fuel tank/s are made from steel and exposed to a wide temperature variation.
My advice is simple, you makes your own choice and live with the consequences.
My logic is simple, if you fuel up with diesel with a high water content when the resulting airspace could produce sufficient moisture to condense into water droplets which would become a problem then why take the risk, I prefer to fill the tanks and treat the diesel with a good product and not the snake oil types and if possible run the engines for about an houe every month as the returning fuel agitates it sufficiently to prevent the bio seperation.
