Why can't people anchor?

[sailaboutvic]

I would guess that all of us has dragged at some time or another so I'm pretty easy going and understanding if I see it happen to someone else.
I'll assist in the dinghy or offer suggestions if I feel that the anchoring of my neighbour is not sound and may endanger someone (including them); however what really annoys me is the people who wont listen to polite, well intentioned advice/comments. Ineptitude can be overcome or corrected with advice and/or experience however ineptitude combined with arrogance is a dangerous combination. If I encounter that I move !

What like the advise I got the other day from a British sailor who anchored behind , he shouted over has I was Rev on my anchor , " hey , you don't want to do that , you end up pulling it out again " I just smiled and said thank you we move over there just in case I drag and hit you . " no it ok your behind me you won't hit me " I know mate , that's why I am moving .
Some how I still don't thing he got my drift .
I Tho getting away from Greece and coming to Turkey would make a different , but you know what , it just the same here .

 

[duncan99210]

So far this year I've seen a boat in Gaios, on being told he needed to put tension on his anchor whilst moored stern to, leap to his winch, pulled the chain tight, oh and up came the anchor after about five metres had been brought in. Luckily there was space on the quay, so he moored side on....

The there have been two instances of needing to go out in the dinghy to help sort out crossed anchors as neither boat had a clue what to do about unhooking them. Always take my own rope now, as I get puzzled looks when I ask for some. The second time was whilst someone was trying to get in stern to: as I prepared to return to my interrupted siesta, I was invited on board to demonstrate how to do it......

Then there was the boat that arrived late in the evening into Petriti. Wide open anchorage and a calm night. Simples, drop you anchor outside all the already anchored boats. Oh no, not this boatload of numpties. Cruised into the middle of the anchored boats, dropped anchor and disappeared off ashore. During the night the wind went from westerly to easterly, nothing dramatic, just enough to to turn everyone round and straighten the anchor chains. You've guessed it. Mr latecomer managed to engage in some knitting with his neighbours. No drama that night but the fun he had the following morning was an object lesson in why you need to consider other boats swinging circles.

And I could go on and on and on but I'll shut up now!

 

[BobnLesley]

...many skippers are never taught to anchor...

Do the RYA practical courses include it now? When we learnt, about 20 years ago our instructor taught us the basics of anchoring - our technique has developed, but not changed much from what we learnt that day - and bemoaned the fact that whilst he always spent 'an hour or two on anchoring' with his students, it wasn't included in the official syllabus, unlike the pile-mooring (which we've never done since!) which was.

We all have our horror/funny stories about the anchoring errors of others, but rather than rant and rave, or laugh and watch the free-show (OK, I do sometimes do that) I've often (particularly with charter yachts) gone over in the dinghy and said something along the lines of: "Look, this isn't an easy place to anchor and I can see its causing you a few problems, could I offer you hand? As I sail full time and anchor perhaps 300 times a year, I've probably had a bit more practice in difficult spots like this." I must've made this offer 40-50 times over the years and in 90% of instances, the offer has been accepted - though often not until the crew have over-ruled the initial 'No, I know what I'm doing!' response of their Skipper. I'll then come on board and advise/direct on what they're doing, though I try to avoid doing it for them, just quietly explain how and perhaps more importantly why you go through each step in what's a relatively simple/methodical process once you know it.

I've endured a few abusive tirades over the years, but I've enjoyed a whole lot more free beers/bottles of wine for my efforts and even more satisfying is to have seen some of those yachts come into another bay a few days later and make a really good job of anchoring on their own; it's only easy when you know how.

PS: Lesley's just reminded me, whilst the 40-50's a fair estimate of those I've advised, I probably only 'cold-called' about thirty, the rest were 'referals' from someone I'd advised earlier

 

[Trident]

"I would guess that all of us has dragged at some time or another "

- not to be too arrogant or jinx myself but in 500 or so nights at anchor in all conditions we have never dragged once. Not even a foot. But then we bought a big old Rocna, two sizes bigger than advised for the boat, carry all chain and always lay it properly no matter how tired we are, always test it on high throttle astern and always stay on board for long enough to take good transits and see its safe. It still took an entire summer in our first year cruising before we would go out of sight of the boat though. I'd go shopping whilst my wife would sit on the beach or dinghy dock with a book and watch over the boat.


"What like the advise I got the other day from a British sailor who anchored behind , he shouted over has I was Rev on my anchor , " hey , you don't want to do that , you end up pulling it out again ""
- I really really hope that that comment was the unique British sense of humour that not many non Brits get; if not then I'll apologise on behalf of my nation. I like to think Brits who have got as far as the Med are quite good sailors but now I think about some I've seen...

 

[KellysEye]

I used to snorkel around anchorages in the Caribbean and around 60% hadn't dug the anchor in and a further 25% had too little chain out. As I've said before the French are the worst with American charterers a close second but with a bigger volume

>60m of chain (in a 3 m deep anchorage)

3 m requires 10 x depth to get any sort of catenary if the wind picks up so that was over the top. There is no standard for chain it solely depends on depth, for example 25 m depth needs 3 times depth - 75 metres.

 

[affinite]

"I would guess that all of us has dragged at some time or another "

- not to be too arrogant or jinx myself but in 500 or so nights at anchor in all conditions we have never dragged once. Not even a foot. But then we bought a big old Rocna, two sizes bigger than advised for the boat, carry all chain and always lay it properly no matter how tired we are, always test it on high throttle astern and always stay on board for long enough to take good transits and see its safe. It still took an entire summer in our first year cruising before we would go out of sight of the boat though. I'd go shopping whilst my wife would sit on the beach or dinghy dock with a book and watch over the boat.


"What like the advise I got the other day from a British sailor who anchored behind , he shouted over has I was Rev on my anchor , " hey , you don't want to do that , you end up pulling it out again ""
- I really really hope that that comment was the unique British sense of humour that not many non Brits get; if not then I'll apologise on behalf of my nation. I like to think Brits who have got as far as the Med are quite good sailors but now I think about some I've seen...

I'd wager that majority of people on here have dragged at least once but respect/credit to you if you havent.
To my eternal shame the last time my anchor dragged it was past Noelex of all people :ambivalence:
BTW - Not wishing to spawn yet another "which anchor is best" thread I too haven't dragged since I dumped the CQR and bought a big Rocna.

 

[jimbaerselman]

...many skippers are never taught to anchor...

Surveys of people who own and skipper boats in UK show that around half have never had formal training. Those who have had formal training (RYA courses) will certainly have had some training in "how to", but not all have been trained to test holding by running full astern. They will have been taught about noting transits, though, to detect whether they're dragging.

A difficulty with training is that you're not going to face a wide enough variety of conditions.

1. Single wind direction <20kt, no tidal stream or depth change (much of the Med!). (Single line sweet, if tested on bottom).

2. Same. >25kt, "sailing" adds powerful jerks (removes value of catenary) from directions varying from each other by 60 degrees (forked moor needed, or line ashore)

3. As 1, but tidal height variation (add scope after test so that tested height/scope ratio remains same)

4. Add current . . . or reversing tidal streams. (running moor, tested by pulling both anchors against each other; lie to riser to cope with depth change)

5. Making a running moor (a) wind with tide (easy) (b) wind against tide (depends . . . )

6. Add seaway to any of the above (reduce snatching with loads of nylon snubber scope)

And in all that, I've only mentioned "bottom" once, I haven't mentioned bottom profile (nothing like a bit of slope to throw theory about scope and depth to the winds) and didn't give any thought whatsoever to anchor type.

So training can't do the job. Cruising in unfamiliar circumstances will teach more tricks. Much to the entertainment of onlookers. And understanding mechanics and dynamics is very helpful. "Learn to Test; Test to Learn" was the motto of one of my schools.

 

[Trident]

I agree with all you say Jim but I do wonder why people don't take the learning seriously - we'd never seen Brittany tides until we got there, never had to anchor on much but mud coming from the Solent, never had to sit out 50 knot winds with big seas - until we did it. But I had read everything I could find on the subject before setting off, I had bought what I thought was the best anchor, got lots of chain, built two bridles - one 2m one for normal anchoring and then a 7m long one for heavy seas (something the Pardey's noted in one of their books to give more shock absorbing), I built a new bow roller in much stronger stainless, bought the best anchor swivel and separated it from the anchor by a short chain to stop sideways forces (from Vyv's website) etc etc - all before I'd gone more than a few miles from home. I know this may be more than many sailors will want to do for the few days they may anchor but I knew we'd be living on the hook at least 9 months of the year so it was important to me BUT, to find all the information I needed to learn about how to do it, what kit to buy and make and how to test it all took only a few hours total online - most of it linked to from here or the Cruising forum. So its not hard to find out what to do - are sailors so cavalier about safety that its too much trouble to give a few hours to learning?

 

[jimbaerselman]

I agree with all you say Jim but I do wonder why people don't take the learning seriously -

They're on holiday to have fun?

And so many of those you meet in peak season in the Med are learning the hard way, by taking the big step - "being in charge" for the first time. Half have got a day skipper, the other half took a competence test on their home ground. All have done quite a bit of sailing or racing in home waters.

Typically, they're cash rich/time poor, snatching their 2 or 4 weeks with family in sun, starting to add experience to theory. The combination of no tides, GPS, predictable winds, warm water, good vis, no commercial traffic has removed nearly all the barriers to entering the class "skipper". Mistakes can be made with few dangerous consequences.

So they do learn, relatively safely, by going out there and making mistakes, rather than spending hours of research. Great for time poor people; sometimes a bit hard on family! Entertaining for others . . . including other new skippers who see the mistakes and learn from them too.

 

[Trident]

That does make a lot of sense - I just wish they could make their learning mistakes without bashing in to my boat....

 

[sailaboutvic]

That does make a lot of sense - I just wish they could make their learning mistakes without bashing in to my boat....

And mine too please

 

[BobnLesley]

...Brits who have got as far as the Med are quite good sailors but now I think about some I've seen...

Not just Brits, but North Europeans generally, that was our expectation: "They've got this far, so must know what they're doing?" But then you begin to realise that even amongst the cruising/liveaboard fleet, a substantial proportion have bought their boat there in the eastern Med and are just now 'learning the ropes'. Having learnt this lesson, I wasn't surprised to find things similar in the Caribbean, as again, a large proportion have bought their boat down in the islands where they're sailing. What did freak me out was coming across a yacht (Swiss) in the Cape Verde Islands whose skipper clearly hadn't got the first clue how to go about anchoring a boat, I rationalised that one with the thought that whilst Mindelo was a long way from most anywhere, he hadn't necessarily had to anchor anywhere on the way.

One evening in the Caribbean, I made some comment about the low-level of seamanship/anchoring competence we'd witnessed particularly amongst the USA flagged yachts - IMO it's worse there than the Med, though to offset that, there's generally more space to be found - and received the response - from an American: "You think this is bayd? Jest wait n'til you git to the Bahamas, that's where all the Merican sailors who cain't make the Caribbean stop."

 

[Artic Warrior]

LOl

What's the problem , it normal , you think you seen every thing , you not seen nothing yet , wait till you get into greece , it's an eye opener .

 

[jimbaerselman]

"You think this is bayd? Jest wait n'til you git to the Bahamas, that's where all the Merican sailors who cain't make the Caribbean stop."

I like the accent!

It's in the Caribbean that I've seen a lot of superb seamanship and learnt good lessons though. Just watch the work of of those delivery guys who (usually single handed) work the one way charters back to windward. Pick up moorings? Slip alongside under sail, loop a line over, let the backing jib slide the mooring forward, roll the sail. who needs engines. Same with anchoring. Forked moors under sail alone? No problem.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Anchoring must be one of the topic talked about on here the most , at the moment there are no less then three thread on the go .
Cruising around and see what people get up to I can see why . I wonder if it the same on the french , Germen , Italian Turkish sailing fourm or is it just is the Brits who seen to have so much problem with anchoring .
Edit ... Four threads

 

[jordanbasset]

Naming no names but I think one of the most important points about anchoring is remembering to secure one end of the rope or chain to the boat

 

[Trident]

Vic, it is all the others that have so many problems - perhaps because Brits do talk about it so much they learn something... I'm joking of course, we've seen plenty of Brits here who can't anchor - though they all tend to be literally having that problem - they can't anchor. Failing to set over and over or dragging immediately ...
The French and Dutch seem to be ok at getting the anchor down but in stupid places that hit others when they swing etc, whilst the Spanish just have no clue about anything at all as far as I can tell. Germans get it as wrong as anyone but at least move when you point out they're going to hit you and the Russians drop in silly places and when they then hit others they shout at the others (yesterday to a boat on a mooring buoy that has been there for months or years) to move. I am now of course starting to sound like a jingoistic Colonel Blimp type so I'll shut up now

 

[Monique]

Ok, after my first few months in the Med its time for rant! A typical 48 hours;

Sitting happily at anchor off Formentera with plenty of chain down as 40+ knot easterlies forecast later in the day. Motorboat anchors so close i have to fend off with a boat hook but still won't move because he's a paid skipper and doesn't want to call his paying clients out from their swim. Thankfully leaves after an hour.
Watch second motorboat drag 150 metres with 6 or 7 people on board, past 2 boats, and they don't even get up from their drinks to look.
Watch 2 or 3 boats collide because they have no idea about swing circles
Relax as night approaches and all the day boats go home leaving me plenty of room to sit out the coming storm. Stop relaxing as at sundown two chart boats turn up, drop anchor right in front of me with little scope and no attempt to set it right - just the usual one big pile, stop engine and go for a swim - I ask them to move because they're too close, there's a big wind due and if the direction changes at all I have lots of scope out and would swing right through them. He refuses to move, laughs and says why don't I wait and see what happens before getting upset. Before I can say - because if we wait and see us colliding its too late you **&*&^ he's dived in the sea and off to join his friends.
So, deciding not to risk my boat in the by now forecast 47-55 knots we up anchor and head for the nearest all weather safe anchorage. Sail up in the dark and anchor around midnight in a sensible spot where we won't trouble anyone.
At dawn someone drops anchor about 6 feet off my port bow - I suggest he's a little close and its a huge half empty anchorage - his response is to let out more chain. I then politely point out his swing will now cut through the boats on moorings that of course have no scope so won't swing out the way if the wind changes. He has no idea what I mean and says adamantly that he will stay where he is.
I dinghy ashore for water and when I return he's gone - but the moored Sunseeker he hit has fenders out and thanks me for trying to talk sense in to him.
Wind picks up to 30 knots.
Watching boats drag left right and centre. One small yacht drags repeatedly and yet they still get off and dingy ashore. It drags.
A friend and I (he's in the boat next to the dragging yacht) get thoroughly soaked in the dinghy taking a line out to it and back to my friends well anchored cat so we stop it dragging out to sea. Meanwhile someone else anchors so close to my friends boat that when the wind lulls for a minute and he comes forward on his chain we can no longer get a dinghy between them. Refuses to move and goes below.
The owners of the dragging boat return, move it and then as soon as its anchored again go back ashore to sit out the storm. Not even on board long enough to take a transit. Amazingly this morning it was still there.
Meanwhile another boat drags in to the yacht behind. It can't motor forward to reset because its not got a working engine. Turns out to be a doss house for summer workers in Ibiza. Someone from another boat dives down and gets a line on to an old mooring and they winch forward off the yacht and then someone else takes their anchor forward in a rib to reset it - though as its a 15 ton 44 foot mono and has a rusty, tiny old fisherman's anchor they decide to leave the impromptu mooring line on too.
Wake up this morning to see another cat that has dragged in to the channel in and out of the harbour (used daily by commercial boats, ferries etc ) - do they get up and move - no - they just leave it there and dingy ashore; I honestly think they didn't even notice they'd moved in the night.
Finally, my friend who'd been there a few days give me a warning; whilst we're anchored with plenty of room and a sensible 5 times scope in 3 metres he warns that if the winds turn 180 degrees we too may need to move as the yacht 4 boat lengths behind us arrive the week before, laid out about 60m of chain (in a 3 m deep anchorage) and then the owners left and have not returned . Its hit several boats so far he said as no one expected such a huge swing in such a shallow anchorage.
This is perhaps the worst 48 hours we've seen so far in the Med but its pretty typical. I know these guys live in stern-to marinas where they're cheek to jowl all the time and the waters are crowded but surely that should foster better anchoring practices to keep safe? The really worrying part is that the peak season isn't even here yet. Oh well, perhaps someone's insurance will provide me with a nice shiny new paint job this summer....

Probably because most sailors have not read your excellent rant on the subject... I share your ideas!

 

[BobnLesley]

"...yacht 4 boat lengths behind us arrive the week before, laid out about 60m of chain (in a 3 m deep anchorage) and then the owners left and have not returned..."

We learnt early to give a wide berth to anything that looks to have been left unattended: We'd anchored in the river off Ayamonte in Southern Spain on about 40m of chain and with 'loads of space' around us; when we returned a few hours later, the tide had turned and the wind picked-up too, the steel yacht well astern of us was now 'sailing' back and forth across the current to the limits of it's 120-150m scope and slamming into ours, damaging sprayhood, guardrails and grab-rails, I'd hate to think how bad the damage would've been if we'd been even a half-hour later in returning.

 

[jimbaerselman]

We learnt early to give a wide berth to anything that looks to have been left unattended: We'd anchored in the river off Ayamonte in Southern Spain on about 40m of chain and with 'loads of space' around us; when we returned a few hours later, the tide had turned and the wind picked-up too, the steel yacht well astern of us was now 'sailing' back and forth across the current to the limits of it's 120-150m scope and slamming into ours, damaging sprayhood, guardrails and grab-rails, I'd hate to think how bad the damage would've been if we'd been even a half-hour later in returning.

So, the steel yacht was then wind over tide? Or, more to the point, were all yachts in the river wind over tide?

Recipe for chaos . . . all boats will be wandering to the extremes of their scope, both laterally and fore and aft, as the wind rises and falls.