l'escargot
New member
Are you basing your assessment on anything more than the YouTube video and assumptions made on here?
Who should be blamed in this collision???
- Thread starter Leonidas
- Start date
Are you basing your assessment on anything more than the YouTube video and assumptions made on here?
flaming
Well-known member
I spoke to one of the skippers on the Sunsail boats that go past in the longer video today.
He's of the opinion that the yacht simply hadn't seen the ship, because it was hidden behind the spinnaker - a big low sweeping Asymetric one. And that the pilot boat just confused them, because they couldn't understand (not having seen the ship) why they were being shouted at.
It was only when the ship started hooting that there was any reaction from the yacht - and then it was the wrong one, to turn almost head to wind and basically stop.
He's of the opinion that the yacht simply hadn't seen the ship, because it was hidden behind the spinnaker - a big low sweeping Asymetric one. And that the pilot boat just confused them, because they couldn't understand (not having seen the ship) why they were being shouted at.
It was only when the ship started hooting that there was any reaction from the yacht - and then it was the wrong one, to turn almost head to wind and basically stop.
2Tizwoz
Well-known member
The Nelson defence
I see no ships!
I see no ships!
pappaecho
New member
I have looked at the video several times.
Firstly the boat is apparently winded by the tanker so that the spinacre collapses, and hence with it the speed of the yacht.
If the skipper of the yacht "could not see the tanker" then what was his crew doing? Looking for icebergs?
The problem with Cowes week is that the skippers get far too hyper about the race, and forget common sense, Colregs and the safety of the crew.
Some years ago I was passage making, and shouted at by a skipper who was racing, even though we were on starboard. He was so far behind the rest of the fleet we assumed that he was not racing. In his mind he was racing, but in mine he had lost the plot!
Firstly the boat is apparently winded by the tanker so that the spinacre collapses, and hence with it the speed of the yacht.
If the skipper of the yacht "could not see the tanker" then what was his crew doing? Looking for icebergs?
The problem with Cowes week is that the skippers get far too hyper about the race, and forget common sense, Colregs and the safety of the crew.
Some years ago I was passage making, and shouted at by a skipper who was racing, even though we were on starboard. He was so far behind the rest of the fleet we assumed that he was not racing. In his mind he was racing, but in mine he had lost the plot!
alan17
New member
Racing and collisions
I have not read all of the posts in this thread so this may already have been said.
I was sailing single handed cruising off Bradwell. I had to take avoiding action even though I was the stand on vessel (starboard tack and the other boat was the windward boat). I told the other boat that they were the give way vessel. The reply was that "we are racing"!
I reported the boat to the committee boat. In pre race briefing crews should be told that racing does not permit ignoring of col regs.
Non compliance should result in disqualification!
I have not read all of the posts in this thread so this may already have been said.
I was sailing single handed cruising off Bradwell. I had to take avoiding action even though I was the stand on vessel (starboard tack and the other boat was the windward boat). I told the other boat that they were the give way vessel. The reply was that "we are racing"!
I reported the boat to the committee boat. In pre race briefing crews should be told that racing does not permit ignoring of col regs.
Non compliance should result in disqualification!
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Yep, that sounds like a good defence, "I did'nt have a proper look out and when given instructions by the pilot, ignored them".
Resolution
Well-known member
Whilst it is just possible that the skipper (+crew), knowing they were on starboard, were not keeping a lookout below their spinnaker, I rather doubt that this was the case. With the amount of race traffic in the Solent during Cowes week it must surely be axiomatic that you keep an all round look out.
I'm more inclined to go with Flaming's suggestion that he expected the tanker to turn earlier, and that he was hoping this turn would put him onto the port side of the tanker. Still within the 1000 metre front zone, but then lots of racing yachts infringe this and get away with it. Don't they???
I'm more inclined to go with Flaming's suggestion that he expected the tanker to turn earlier, and that he was hoping this turn would put him onto the port side of the tanker. Still within the 1000 metre front zone, but then lots of racing yachts infringe this and get away with it. Don't they???
ripvan1
New member
He's of the opinion that the yacht simply hadn't seen the ship, because it was hidden behind the spinnaker - a big low sweeping Asymetric one. And that the pilot boat just confused them, because they couldn't understand (not having seen the ship) why they were being shouted at.
It was only when the ship started hooting that there was any reaction from the yacht - and then it was the wrong one, to turn almost head to wind and basically stop.
Seems to me you're defending the indefensible
The indefensible being someone on board should have seen the ship and avoiding action taken prontissimo - no ifs, no buts - guilty of being complete twonk
It was only when the ship started hooting that there was any reaction from the yacht - and then it was the wrong one, to turn almost head to wind and basically stop.
Seems to me you're defending the indefensible
The indefensible being someone on board should have seen the ship and avoiding action taken prontissimo - no ifs, no buts - guilty of being complete twonk
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Oscarpop
New member
[I
Seems to me you're defending the indefensible
The indefensible being someone on board should have seen the ship and avoiding action taken prontissimo - no ifs, no buts - guilty of being complete twonk
+1
VicS
Well-known member
Its interesting to see Flamings interpretation of possible events.
I was thinking along similar lines.
The tanker would have been steering about 290 as it came up the eastern Solent towards the "precautionary area"
It would probably have appeared to be a safe situation to a yacht approaching from the west.
Somewhere north of Prince Consort the tanker would have turned to port by at least 20°, possibly by as much as 30°.
Although this may have appeared worrying at first it could then have appeared that the yacht, if heading for S Bramble, would have passed well clear of its starboard side, esp if the turn was as much as 30°,
The situation began to become difficult when the tanker started its turn to starboard off W Cowes.
By then the yacht would have been fairly close and rather rapidly found itself not a little outside the 100m exclusion zone on the tankers starboard side but unavoidably approaching becoming well within the 1000 m zone ahead of it!
Failure to anticipate the tankers changes in course, esp the turn to starboard, could well have been the cause of the mishap rather than a deliberate attempt to cross its bows.
But who knows.
Will await the results of whatever enquiry there is.
Will it be investigated by the MAIB ... It is not yet listed as a current investigation although both of the recent incidents on the Thames are.
flaming
Well-known member
Seems to me you're defending the indefensible
The indefensible being someone on board should have seen the ship and avoiding action taken prontissimo - no ifs, no buts - guilty of being complete twonk
I'm not defending the guy. Clearly anyone who hits a ship has got it very very wrong. It's the assumption that it was reckless pursuit of race glory, rather than simply a massive mistake, or series of mistakes, that gets me.
No one wants the little bit of polished silver that much.
ripvan1
New member
fair comment, it was the excuse of not seeing the thing that provoked my reply - - - should have gone to specsavers
Ariadne
Active member
Just how fast does anybody expect the tanker to turn/slow down or stop? Have any of you actually been on a big ship with yachts around? Judging by some of the comments on here never!!
Regardless of any other interpretations of the COLREGs, it is eveybodies responsibility to avoid collision. In this case the yacht is the more manouvarable vessel by some huge margin, and there should have acted earlier to avoid collision.
We have all made some mistakes and have been involved in close quaters situations when shouldn't have, but from what I can see from this; the yacht is at fault.
Regardless of any other interpretations of the COLREGs, it is eveybodies responsibility to avoid collision. In this case the yacht is the more manouvarable vessel by some huge margin, and there should have acted earlier to avoid collision.
We have all made some mistakes and have been involved in close quaters situations when shouldn't have, but from what I can see from this; the yacht is at fault.
prv
Well-known member
Have you actually read any of this thread? Nobody is expecting the tanker to do anything, and nobody has said that it is not entirely the yacht's fault.
Pete
l'escargot
New member
You don't need to have been on a big ship to appreciate their limitations, in fact you can probably apreciate them more from sailing in small boats in their proximity.
I don't think anyone is saying that the yacht skipper, or anyone else, is interpreting colregs to absolve him from his responsibility for the collision.
What some people do seem to find hard to believe, myself included, are the suggestions that he was claiming stand on rights, didn't see the tanker, expected it to take evasive action, placed his crew at risk deliberately to win the race or when racing a boat of that type, at that level, was ignorant of colregs, racing rules and general self preservation.
Without a doubt something went seriously wrong on that boat on that day but there are a lot of armchair sailors making judgements/accusations based on little more than a short YouTube clip and uninformed speculation on here.
The MAIB report should make for interesting reading.
ctva
Well-known member
Bull! Even travelling at, say 10kts, the yacht would NEVER suddenly be in either the exclusion zone or have any doubt of a possible collision. Any problem that he may have had is irellevant as he was just too close.
He was a total plonker and should have the book thrown at him.
maxi77
Active member
Well it seems clear this numpty did value silver higher than his own life and those of his crew. That was not a minor misjudgement it was a gross act of stupidity. He clearly knew it would be close and he still went for it despite knowing the tanker had no chance of avoiding him.
He is incredibly lucky to be alive and even luckier not to be explaining to the relatives of dead crew members just how clever he really is.
Any one who lets him near the helm of anything needs their head examined
Simondjuk
Active member
Anyone know if the guy was a regular Solent sailor? If not, the course the big ships steer outside Cowes could have caused confusion. As already said, they turn briefly to port, then hard to starboard, and I mean really hard. It is possible that the yacht skipper thought he was going to pass safely 100m off the ship's starboard side prior to it initiating it's turn up to the North, suddenly found that wasn't to be, then well and truly stuffed up his remaining options.
Stu Jackson
New member
Are there traffic schemes and separation zones on the charts for the Solent?
Simondjuk
Active member
Of course. They don't give an indication of just how peculiar the course the ships steer is though, if that's your point.
