What's the fascination with long keels?

[chrisedwards]

You seem to have ignored all the times I have tried to argue that NOT ALL fin keeled boats stall out at slow speeds.

I am not questioning a long keeled boats suitability for blue water at all. I am questioning the sub group of long distance sailors who put long keel high on their list of priorities. It's unnecessary but sometimes the boat you can afford or is available is the one you get...

"NOT ALL fin keeled boats stall out at slow speeds"

Yes they do I'm afraid and so do long keeled boats and this is when lateral resistance steps in and then undeniably the long leeler has more...... and we are going round and round.

 

[Clarky]

interesting thread which on balance has persuaded me to go for a fin keeled boat next.

 

[chrisedwards]

You seem to have ignored all the times I have tried to argue that NOT ALL fin keeled boats stall out at slow speeds.

I am not questioning a long keeled boats suitability for blue water at all. I am questioning the sub group of long distance sailors who put long keel high on their list of priorities. It's unnecessary but sometimes the boat you can afford or is available is the one you get...

" I am not questionning a long keeled boats suitability for blue water at all.."

You are the original poster - the first line of your original post:

" I am trying to work out why so many people put long keel as a desirable aspect of a blue water boat...."

 

[E39mad]

Comparing what is now a medium displacement (in comparison to it's current sisterships) Jeanneau 41ft against a 34 foot "modern" long keeler is not one that I doubt comes up in most peoples thought processes.

In my opinion between the two you either want:
1) a bigger boat with longer waterline length and associated speed or:
2) a better balanced, more manageable purpose built blue water yacht

On the question of balance, the V34 can be EASILY set up whereby you can leave the wheel with no pilot on, walk around the bow and come back to the cockpit with the boat tracking on the same course. With the gunnels awash you still only need two fingers on the wheel - it is that well balanced.

The Legende is a very good boat but no where near as well balanced as the Vancouver - based on my sailing both boats!

 

[doug748]

Comparing what is now a medium displacement (in comparison to it's current sisterships) Jeanneau 41ft against a 34 foot "modern" long keeler is not one that I doubt comes up in most peoples thought processes.........

Quite so, that particular poster has a history of, how can we put it to remain polite,
- seeing virtues in his previous boats that have been overlooked by everyone else.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Funny you should mention the Co32 as a paragon of manoeuvrability. The only racing collision I've been involved in was with a Co32. Upwind and downtide in very light airs past Cowes Green during a Cowes week. Co32 coming out on port, us on stbd. He caught us, bow to cockpit and took some splinters of gelcoat off his bow on our primary winch. Profuse apologies. "Sorry, I've had the tiller over for ages, but she just wouldn't come round."

But was the mainsail hard in as well? Had he dumped the sheet, or used the sails to help him or hinder him? Its all about balance and the most lively fin keeled boat won't overcome the forces of nature if one sails like a prat. Its usually bearing away that is the issue in any breeze.

Is that a little harsh?

 

[Twister_Ken]

But was the mainsail hard in as well? Had he dumped the sheet, or used the sails to help him or hinder him? Its all about balance and the most lively fin keeled boat won't overcome the forces of nature if one sails like a prat. Its usually bearing away that is the issue in any breeze.

Is that a little harsh?

Yep, he'd done all the right things. Basically he had so little steerage way he could do rugger ball. The collision was at very low speed. After he bounced off us he did a complete circle before he was back under control. The 12 tons of Swan 411 I was aboard shrugged off the Co and just kept creeping along.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yep, he'd done all the right things. Basically he had so little steerage way he could do rugger ball. The collision was at very low speed. After he bounced off us he did a complete circle before he was back under control. The 12 tons of Swan 411 I was aboard shrugged off the Co and just kept creeping along.

Fair enough - except it doesn't really illustrate the point I was making.

I once bounced off another Sigma 33 when we were becalmed. We just drifted together. They had the sense to push their boom over to Port (there was NO wind) and suggested I do a little rotation when the wind filled in as he was on starboard tack. Next time I'll push my boom over to port as well....!

 

[john_morris_uk]

" I am not questionning a long keeled boats suitability for blue water at all.."

You are the original poster - the first line of your original post:

" I am trying to work out why so many people put long keel as a desirable aspect of a blue water boat...."

Let me re-phrase it. I am sure that many long keeled boats are suitable for blue water sailing, but there are lots of fin keeled boats that are better. I appreciate that long keels give you all sorts of good characteristics, but its an anachronism - and perhaps a result of wooden boat building and the inability to build a seaworthy wooden boat in the traditional was with a fin keel. GRP and other modern forms of construction liberated the designers to draw almost any hull shape they fancied. Some don't work so well, but many are a real improvement on some of the long keeled boats that sail like dogs.

OK I've made my point..

 

[Twister_Ken]

OK I've made my point..

Don't think so. All you've done is illustrate that there is no globally ideal solution

 

[Robin]

Quite so, that particular poster has a history of, how can we put it to remain polite,
- seeing virtues in his previous boats that have been overlooked by everyone else.

If by that snide comment you mean that I will comment on boats that I know well, either my own or those of friends then you might be correct. Unlike some I have overcome my old prejudices and opened my mind to new ideas, you know like those that have come about in what, let's say the last 30 or 40 years.

Comparing what is now a medium displacement (in comparison to it's current sisterships) Jeanneau 41ft against a 34 foot "modern" long keeler is not one that I doubt comes up in most peoples thought processes.

In my opinion between the two you either want:
1) a bigger boat with longer waterline length and associated speed or:
2) a better balanced, more manageable purpose built blue water yacht

On the question of balance, the V34 can be EASILY set up whereby you can leave the wheel with no pilot on, walk around the bow and come back to the cockpit with the boat tracking on the same course. With the gunnels awash you still only need two fingers on the wheel - it is that well balanced.

The Legende is a very good boat but no where near as well balanced as the Vancouver - based on my sailing both boats!

I was not comparing the two directly because as you rightly say they are two very different boats, in size if nothing else. What I was doing was to try and point out that some of the claimed blue water attributes of a smaller long keeled (even modernish) design were still there in some fin keelers. I would point out that the price difference might allow for some lateral thinking too as far as size goes, because for blue water liveaboard in my book, size sure does matter unless you are a masochist. I chose merely to list in red where our entirely different design matched the attributes and specification of the V34 that were listed, with the suggestion that these were somehow unique.

I disagree, having sailed our Sun Legende some 18,000mls in all weathers with just us two wrinklies, that it isn't well balanced. I pointed out in another reply that the pilot on ours had an irritating little trick of switching itself to standby unasked, sometimes not for 24hrs, sometimes twice in an hour. Very often the boat would sail herself for quite some time before we even questioned if something had changed, irrespective of being on or off the wind.

My guess is that you sailed on a SL41 in full race trim when the crew would be 8-10 and driven to the limit. My guess also is that perhaps the one you sailed had the slightly shallower keel than did ours, maybe also the slightly shorter rig. We on the other hand sailed two up with white sails only 98% of the time, leaving out the very large asymmetric because she went well enough for cruising without it even in light airs.

My preference for blue water or just plain liveaboard would always favour larger size. Liveaboards spend most of their time in harbour, contrary to popular opinion maybe and liveaboard comfort comes from having some space to stretch out in, plenty of light and ventilation and room to walk around decks without having to squeeze sideways. Also contrary to popular opinion maybe, most blue water liveaboards will choose to cross the oceans in the right place at the right time of the year and leave the Cape Horn in winter against the wind to others. We had friends years ago that circumnavigated in a Van De Stadt 34 footer and who said they did the whole trip in winds no greater than F6/7, less than they would often find when sailing locally in UK waters.

As SWMBO rightly says, different strokes for different folks. I really do not care what boats other people choose but I do squirm when the old prejudices are continually wheeled out.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Don't think so. All you've done is illustrate that there is no globally ideal solution

OK - I think I stated my case - I didn't think it was an argument that anyone can win. Boats are always a compromise in one way or another.

 

[Robin]

OK - I think I stated my case - I didn't think it was an argument that anyone can win. Boats are always a compromise in one way or another.

Look how long it took Nelson to overcome prejudice. Nelson Mandela mind, not Horatio.

 

[chrisedwards]

Let me re-phrase it. I am sure that many long keeled boats are suitable for blue water sailing, but there are lots of fin keeled boats that are better. I appreciate that long keels give you all sorts of good characteristics, but its an anachronism - and perhaps a result of wooden boat building and the inability to build a seaworthy wooden boat in the traditional was with a fin keel. GRP and other modern forms of construction liberated the designers to draw almost any hull shape they fancied. Some don't work so well, but many are a real improvement on some of the long keeled boats that sail like dogs.

OK I've made my point..

Your point was that a well designed fin keel can do anything a longkeeler can do and better. I picked just one area where I believe this may not be the case - low speed manoeuveribility under sail - the reason I picked my long keeler. We have entered a healthy debate on the issue but you have not responded to my post no. 301 where I questionned your statement that well designed fin keels do not stall at slow speeds.

As for relevance to your original post - surely not being reliant on an engine is an important consideration in a blue water cruiser.

 

[snowleopard]

I am amazed by the claims for huge speeds from owners of both heavy and light displacement boats. Where are all these boats that should obviously be whizzing past leaving me in their wakes?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Your point was that a well designed fin keel can do anything a longkeeler can do and better. I picked just one area where I believe this may not be the case - low speed manoeuveribility under sail - the reason I picked my long keeler. We have entered a healthy debate on the issue but you have not responded to my post no. 301 where I questionned your statement that well designed fin keels do not stall at slow speeds.

As for relevance to your original post - surely not being reliant on an engine is an important consideration in a blue water cruiser.

I sailed an ex baltic trader once with a very traditional long keel. We could go sideways with the best of them. I also suspect that there was more keel area on the Nicholson 55 than there was on the trader which was rather bigger....

So long keel doesn't always mean more area - and I suggest that long keels can stall out just as well as fin keeled ones.

 

[Robin]

Your point was that a well designed fin keel can do anything a longkeeler can do and better. I picked just one area where I believe this may not be the case - low speed manoeuveribility under sail - the reason I picked my long keeler. We have entered a healthy debate on the issue but you have not responded to my post no. 301 where I questionned your statement that well designed fin keels do not stall at slow speeds.

As for relevance to your original post - surely not being reliant on an engine is an important consideration in a blue water cruiser.

Yes very true. However you are referring to (claiming) superior performance in very limited circumstances entering confined spaces under sail with a long keeler. My requirement for not being reliant on an engine is when out at sea in very light winds and under such circumstances a halfway decent fin keeler will win hands down.

 

[Kukri]

@John Morris - I don't think that was because the keel was stalled; I think it was because it was effectively absent.

I sail a gaff cutter; I have sailed her for 28 years and she often makes four knots, sometimes five and very occasionally six and a quarter, at which point she becomes over-excited, trembles, and forgets that she has had her bus pass for a good many years now.

In reponse to Robin, above, I respectfully beg to differ.

In light airs at sea the "heavy" will outperform the lightweight because her sail area to wetted surface ratio is so much better once one has hung out the glad rags. Light weather sails are a good investment - they don't wear out and I have a lot of places to hang them from.

It's in moderate winds that the fin keeler shines, because she loses less energy to wave making.

I do not count the Island Packets as true long keelers.

 

[Robin]

I am amazed by the claims for huge speeds from owners of both heavy and light displacement boats. Where are all these boats that should obviously be whizzing past leaving me in their wakes?

Miaow Felix!

 

[flaming]

Your point was that a well designed fin keel can do anything a longkeeler can do and better. I picked just one area where I believe this may not be the case - low speed manoeuveribility under sail - the reason I picked my long keeler. We have entered a healthy debate on the issue but you have not responded to my post no. 301 where I questionned your statement that well designed fin keels do not stall at slow speeds.

As for relevance to your original post - surely not being reliant on an engine is an important consideration in a blue water cruiser.

What a strange argument this has become!

All keels stall, some more readily than others. However, I wouldn't put a non stalling keel at the top of the list, even when it comes to manouverability in confined spaces under sail. For that requirement, I'd put turning circle first.

Very often pre start manouvers involve being able to hold the boat head to wind for extended periods, or creep forward slowly, waiting for the right time to "pull the trigger" and go for it.
I don't recall ever thinking "wow, this would be so much easier if I had a long keel".