What should "cruising" boats be designed for?

boatmike

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What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

I make no excuse for starting another thread on this subject as the other two on keels etc have IMHO wandered off the point.
It is immaterial that racing boats have had failures. Racing boats, cars, anything are designed to win races. The factor of safety regarding keel, rig, and hull failures is pretty marginal by definition. That's why racing boats are often dismasted, have rudder failures, keels fall off etc. just as F1 cars blow engines, but a cruising boat, like a road car should be designed to be easy to handle, very safe in the conditions it might face, and survive any normal level of cock up that it might face too. (Hands up anyone who has more than 10 years sailing experience and has never run aground or bumped into a pontoon etc etc)
It does not matter if the boat is long keeled, twin keeled, lifting keel, or fin. It should be built in my opinion with a FOS that allows for the boat to hit an underwater obstruction at it's normal cruising speed without catastrophic failure and sinking.
That does not mean it won't suffer serious damage that will need attention. It means it wont drown it's crew.
It is my contention that this condition can only be met by
1. A traditional integral long keeled design
2. A well designed swing keel boat that will absorb the shock ( not a lifting keel with dagger board)
3. A well designed cat (because it will ride over the obstruction and even if damaged should not sink)
4. A bolted keel where the design has been subjected to mathematical analysis or tested by applying a shock load equal to the force seen in a collision and proven to be sound. Even then the keel attachment points should be examined and bolts etc replaced periodically just like mast and rigging should on all boats.

Unfortunately what we have on the market are really a load of "cruiser racers" with racing keels and rudders that have not been shown to be robust enough to stand any sort of underwater clout at all. Furthermore they are built down to a price and corners cut to what I believe to be a wholely unacceptable level. THESE SHOULD NEVER BE CONFUSED WITH PROPER CRUISING BOATS which are still on the market but vastly more expensive.

If you choose a racing derivative to cruise in be aware that you attract at least the same level of risk as a racing boat which includes the possibility of rapid capsize and sinking.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

When we were shopping, these were the must haves:

1. Keel stepped mast
2. Skeg hung rudder
3. Encapsulated keel
4. 40% plus ballast/displacement ratio

These were the personal preferences;

1. No lateral galley
2. Slab reefing
3. No Volvo engine
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

Well actually to take a step back, a cruising boat should be capable of cruising. This means no keel at all cos it gets in the way, it means getting places fast when you want to .. this means the only proper cruising yacht is the McGreggor 26 IMHO
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

You could also add a bovercraft or a low flying aeroplane not to mention QE2... but back on planet earth we were talking sailboats....
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

[ QUOTE ]
Well actually to take a step back, a cruising boat should be capable of cruising. This means no keel at all cos it gets in the way, it means getting places fast when you want to .. this means the only proper cruising yacht is the McGreggor 26 IMHO

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Mind you they are great to see when planing.

Image026-1.jpg
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

[ QUOTE ]
what is a lateral galley? and why not?

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I think he means linear galley, one that runs down one side of the saloon, a design favoured on many current cruising boats.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is a lateral galley? and why not?

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I think he means linear galley, one that runs down one side of the saloon, a design favoured on many current cruising boats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bugger, I got one of them, why is it so bad?
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

[ QUOTE ]
Bugger, I got one of them, why is it so bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gifI dont know /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif, you tell us!
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

[ QUOTE ]
When we were shopping, these were the must haves:

1. Keel stepped mast <span style="color:blue">We weren't that bothered about this provided the compression post was tough</span>
2. Skeg hung rudder <span style="color:blue">Agreed</span>
3. Encapsulated keel <span style="color:blue">Got one of them too</span>
4. 40% plus ballast/displacement ratio <span style="color:blue">37.5% - close enough</span>

These were the personal preferences;

1. No lateral galley <span style="color:blue">Absolutely - this was our big bug bear</span>
2. Slab reefing <span style="color:blue">Again, yep</span>
3. No Volvo engine <span style="color:blue">Not as concerned, but ended up with Perkins </span>



[/ QUOTE ]

The other thing we hated when we looked around boats was a chart table whose seat was the end of the saloon berth or the head of the pilot berth - not very practical in wet weather gear.

As for the galley - we have a U shaped one which is great to wedge yourself in when in a big sea. With a linear one we felt you would be up 'running' up and down the galley at sea as there was no where to brace yourself sufficiently.

Jonny
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

It's not bad - bad.
In so much as in-mast furling is not bad either. Just another thing to go wrong.

As to the galley: a traditional L-shaped galley is considered "safer" -> two sides to attach yourself to in case of a blow.
Also, personal preference: it doesn't take up so much saloon space. Two equal bunks along the hull iso a curvy bunk and a bench in the middle
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

I completely agree with you.

We have a traditional steel long keeler. We have sailed into a sandbank at hull speed and once crashed into a submerged car on the Seine. No problem at all.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

Did you like the galley in your Etap 38i? With the island in the middle to lean against.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

I am not being fair, sorry, my linear galley runs down the length of the forward port hull.

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To be honest though, I have never fancied strapping myself to a hot oven when the boat is pitching around, I would rather have panic handles to grab hold of personally.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

A lot of sense - and we've never met /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Amazing /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

If this is a serious question the answer depends on where your cruising. If it's to high latitudes then Beth Leonard and Evan Starzinger's Web Site makes a lot of sense (I hate to say this because they were both Management Consultants, but the relentlessly anal has its place, I suppose).

If it's to the tropics than the chapter 3 on Preparing to Go in the RCC Pacific Crossing Guide makes a lot of sense.

Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing tells you what kind of boats are most likely to survive.

And, for my money, light weather performance also matters as most of the time the problem isn't too much wind but not enough wind.

Among modern boats, the Rustler 42 might be a good example of a cruiser.
 
Bollx

Good rant but complete rubbish. I am guessing that the write is very solenty, hence the ranting - instead of sailing.

For example, I have met few if any people who decide to cook up a complicated food in f7+ although I've done it (largely for fun) and the problems were not at all to do with the linear galley. They relate to the food staying in the pan/oven, rather than on the floor. But most people just don't do such an exercise and can survive with biscuits and fruit for the duration of a gale. Safer too.
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

It's down to which boat you are happy with.

I'd only agree with the slab reefing point, but that's easily changed on any boat. Everything else is subjective.

Boats I've sailed include Twisters, Rivals, Warrior, Westerly, Sweden, Bruce Roberts, Moody, Bendy toys, Jeaneau, one design race boats, one off boats, ocean race boats, Sigmas and older Bavarias. The best boat for ocean miles and live aboard use was the old Bav. Nothing worried me on the boat in terms of build and strength, even when hove to in a November Biscay storm.
It was a cast iron bolt on keel, deck stepped mast, lengthwise galley, volvo engined spade ruddered very good boat!

Our deck fittings stood up to a severe storm better than an Ovnis. Some things were a compromise, but most of it was well built and well thought out.

My point is you don't know how good a boat is until you've done some miles in a variety of weather. You'd be surprised how your attitude can change. That could have been my list 10 years ago!
 
Re: What should \"cruising\" boats be designed for?

Our previous boat was an Etap 38i.
We sailed most of the time - regardless of forecast - pushing our and the boats limits every time.
She sailed well and managed more or less comfortably in anything up to an F6.
When we pushed more - Atlantic - nasty F7-8 - she did not want to play anymore.

I then compiled my list based on the previous six years.

This year - in current boat - we sailed two times in particular nasty weather (an F8 and an F9). The boat coped far better than the crew did.
The F9 in particular was nastier than it should have been due to skipper stupidity - I should have furled/reefed earlier.
 
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