flaming
Well-known member
Only if your budget allows you to write off the whole of the purchase price, on the assumption that once you're done with the boat nobody else will want to buy it.
What has happened to the boat market?
- Thread starter ash2020
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srm
Well-known member
My boat went to a younger guy, probably around 40, moving up from various types of board sailing and a Hobicat. He was happy to put in the time needed to tidy the boat as the low price means he bought the boat without need of a bank loan.
dancrane
Well-known member
Aside from that positive tale SRM, i think there's doleful light on the future of ownership generally. If you're young and working and are on a restricted budget, you'll likely have limited free time in your calendar, and the condition of the budget boat you can afford means much more time than you'd like will be fixing, not sailing...
...so on top of the already limited funds you were able to put into the purchase, and the whopping, ever-increasing cost of berthing (which will attend your boat as long as you own it (in fact even if you die meanwhile)), comes the obligation not simply to enjoy what the brochure showed the boat providing, but long days and weekends scraping, painting, re-rigging and paying for terrifyingly costly replacement kit which earlier owners wore out.
It's hardly surprising if people who are not accustomed (by having been brought up among that regime of outgoings and obligations), aren't attracted by the prospect of buying anything that needs work.
As we're now so close to long light evenings and better weather, I've definitely felt the urge to shell out on a cabin boat again...
...but my first thought wasn't even "what boat?", it was "where the hell can I keep it, without rapidly regretting buying it?"
I want one and I can afford one, but having done it before, I'm thinking how short our summers are, and how very soon I'll be glad I didn't ensnare myself again in the awful, inevitable machinery of maintenance and ownership costs.
I really hate admitting it to myself, but even with enough money and with 95% of my freetime to call my own, buying another "affordable" boat is not worth it.
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...so on top of the already limited funds you were able to put into the purchase, and the whopping, ever-increasing cost of berthing (which will attend your boat as long as you own it (in fact even if you die meanwhile)), comes the obligation not simply to enjoy what the brochure showed the boat providing, but long days and weekends scraping, painting, re-rigging and paying for terrifyingly costly replacement kit which earlier owners wore out.
It's hardly surprising if people who are not accustomed (by having been brought up among that regime of outgoings and obligations), aren't attracted by the prospect of buying anything that needs work.
As we're now so close to long light evenings and better weather, I've definitely felt the urge to shell out on a cabin boat again...
...but my first thought wasn't even "what boat?", it was "where the hell can I keep it, without rapidly regretting buying it?"
I want one and I can afford one, but having done it before, I'm thinking how short our summers are, and how very soon I'll be glad I didn't ensnare myself again in the awful, inevitable machinery of maintenance and ownership costs.
I really hate admitting it to myself, but even with enough money and with 95% of my freetime to call my own, buying another "affordable" boat is not worth it.
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mrming
Well-known member
One other thing worth noting is that, in the UK, it’s very difficult to pay people to work on boats for a sensible price at the moment. As someone who could afford to do this, I usually do the work myself (if I have the skills) because:
- Finding reliable people who are available to show up and do a great job is hard
- When you do find those people they usually need to charge hundreds of a pounds a day in labour in order to make their business viable
So it’s even more important than ever to be a PBO if you’re on a budget.
- Finding reliable people who are available to show up and do a great job is hard
- When you do find those people they usually need to charge hundreds of a pounds a day in labour in order to make their business viable
So it’s even more important than ever to be a PBO if you’re on a budget.
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Refueler
Well-known member
I had solved it by moving to somewhere I can afford a waterfront property.
mmmmmmm
What is it they say - you can never get enough ??
There's me - 25ft Motor Sailer nicely tucked up my private boat channel - no mooring fees - no obligations on anything other than what I put on myself !! Electric / water all there ...
What do I do ? I go and buy a bigger boat that basically is too much trouble to get past the bridges and would be touching bottom in my channel ... so she is in the Town Yacht Harbour ....
Now in process of being kitted out / sorted for racing in the Baltics ...
dancrane
Well-known member
Refueler, surely you could offset the cost of having a boat you cannot berth at home, by letting someone pay to use your shallower private mooring?
Quite neat, if you can be both a berth-holder and a berthing-master.
I won't say "I'm reminded of drug-dealers whose profits feed their own addictions".
Ooops, I said it.
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Quite neat, if you can be both a berth-holder and a berthing-master.
I won't say "I'm reminded of drug-dealers whose profits feed their own addictions".
Ooops, I said it.
.
Refueler
Well-known member
I am trying to buy a large plot of land further upriver - to create boat / camping / fishing / model flying area ...
The channel at home is not big enough area to invite in other boats ... they'd have to be motor anyway ..
The channel at home is not big enough area to invite in other boats ... they'd have to be motor anyway ..
dancrane
Well-known member
Weren't you tempted to get a lifting keeler like a Southerly, that would save you hundreds of pounds per month just by being kept at home?
Plus, non-yard maintenance could be done a stone's throw from the comforts of home, whenever you have a spare ten minutes.
Considering how much of the calendar (and of one's boating budget) is spent maintaining rather than sailing, keeping the boat at home free of cost would seem to be good, piled upon excellent.
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Plus, non-yard maintenance could be done a stone's throw from the comforts of home, whenever you have a spare ten minutes.
Considering how much of the calendar (and of one's boating budget) is spent maintaining rather than sailing, keeping the boat at home free of cost would seem to be good, piled upon excellent.
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BobnLesley
Well-known member
Glad to hear it's not just me. Besides, whenever the '...are you two getting another boat...' question arises, the First Mate and more importantly, Chief Anti-fouler, is invariably quicker with her 'Been there, done that, even got a couple of tee-shirts still' response than I am.
srm
Well-known member
Sadly, I have to agree.
I was fortunate in having achieved a few months short of fifty years continuous yacht ownership on a shoe string budget. This was only possible as a result of where I lived (Shetland then Orkney) and having to do almost all the maintenance etc. myself as we were a few hundred miles from the nearest yacht yard. The up side was the boats were always kept within easy reach of home and I enjoyed learning the skills needed. (I learnt to weld while owning a steel boat, but got a professional engineer friend to do a couple of critical jobs).
For the first few years the boats were on moorings I made up and maintained within sight of the house. Annual harbour dues were minimal and when marinas were introduced to the area they were community owned and run on a not for profit basis. Costs for the last few years here in the Azores have been similar. The boat was kept in a local authority owned marina with reasonable rates for residents, much the same as my local resident's rate in Stromness marina.
If I had stayed working in Taunton (in a research unit after university) my sailing life would have been very different, at best crew for someone with deeper pockets or possibly a shared ownership, but with a long drive to get to the boat.
Tiger Moth
New member
I'm looking to buy at present and spending days trawling through ads and my costs spreadsheet trying to work out what scenario offers the best value, not just the cheapest price.
At the top of my mind is that any boat I buy will be subjected to severe depreciation. The market is awash with 1960s/70s/80s boats in need of serious maintenance and refurbishment with the sword of Damocles of an old diesel engine hanging over them, so actually they are more like liabilities than assets. Their sellers are often old gentlemen (don't worry, according to my children I'm already there) who can't maintain them in tip top condition but remember the good old days when boats held their value. The OP's boat is possibly a prime example, I'm afraid. One commentator looked at the video and suggested a new genoa, I only noticed the main and thought the same about that. So there's about £1,500 to spend to start with. With marina fees being what they are the gentleman could well be better off forgetting what he paid for it, slashing the price and offloading the liability, thereby coming away with more money than hanging on hoping that his price will be paid. What does a year in a south coast marina cost?
Right now it seems no-one has any money, we're quite possibly in recession. Activity of all sorts is down. Cricket clubs, sailing clubs, you name it, memberships are falling as younger people are distracted by the internet and pummelled by the cost of accommodation. The future for coastal sailing is not bright and boat ownership is returning to being something for the rich, as it was 100 years ago. August commentator mrming notes that big boats are selling well.
For me, taking on a 50 year-old ball of complexity and cost makes little sense so I'm going for simplicity. On Monday I'm going to look at a 1980s 22' swing keeler on a very decent trailer which will need a couple of weeks' work, all for £400. If its swing keel bolt looks tired it's a £1,000 job and I will walk away. There is a fin-keeled Pandora I can get for under £1,000 with a really good 6hp outboard. I appreciate that these do not compare with the OP's yacht but they will cost a lot less to keep. When I'm looking to finish with sailing I can give it away or scrap it.
At the top of my mind is that any boat I buy will be subjected to severe depreciation. The market is awash with 1960s/70s/80s boats in need of serious maintenance and refurbishment with the sword of Damocles of an old diesel engine hanging over them, so actually they are more like liabilities than assets. Their sellers are often old gentlemen (don't worry, according to my children I'm already there) who can't maintain them in tip top condition but remember the good old days when boats held their value. The OP's boat is possibly a prime example, I'm afraid. One commentator looked at the video and suggested a new genoa, I only noticed the main and thought the same about that. So there's about £1,500 to spend to start with. With marina fees being what they are the gentleman could well be better off forgetting what he paid for it, slashing the price and offloading the liability, thereby coming away with more money than hanging on hoping that his price will be paid. What does a year in a south coast marina cost?
Right now it seems no-one has any money, we're quite possibly in recession. Activity of all sorts is down. Cricket clubs, sailing clubs, you name it, memberships are falling as younger people are distracted by the internet and pummelled by the cost of accommodation. The future for coastal sailing is not bright and boat ownership is returning to being something for the rich, as it was 100 years ago. August commentator mrming notes that big boats are selling well.
For me, taking on a 50 year-old ball of complexity and cost makes little sense so I'm going for simplicity. On Monday I'm going to look at a 1980s 22' swing keeler on a very decent trailer which will need a couple of weeks' work, all for £400. If its swing keel bolt looks tired it's a £1,000 job and I will walk away. There is a fin-keeled Pandora I can get for under £1,000 with a really good 6hp outboard. I appreciate that these do not compare with the OP's yacht but they will cost a lot less to keep. When I'm looking to finish with sailing I can give it away or scrap it.
xyachtdave
Well-known member
Interesting read on a Sunday morning of the different perspectives of the used boat market.
If you just want a boat as the reply above you can find a bargain, if you’re after something specific I’d suggest it’s going to be harder.
I know a lot of boats change hands over the winter ready for action in the Spring but the weather hasn’t really got going yet. Wet and windy every weekend for the last couple of months.
I can’t imagine anyone has been looking out the window recently thinking I can’t wait to get out there, I’m missing out.
OP have you had any luck yet?
If you just want a boat as the reply above you can find a bargain, if you’re after something specific I’d suggest it’s going to be harder.
I know a lot of boats change hands over the winter ready for action in the Spring but the weather hasn’t really got going yet. Wet and windy every weekend for the last couple of months.
I can’t imagine anyone has been looking out the window recently thinking I can’t wait to get out there, I’m missing out.
OP have you had any luck yet?
Rhylsailer99
Active member
Hurley 22 for sale UK, Hurley boats for sale, Hurley used boat sales, Hurley Sailing Yachts For Sale Hurley 22 - Apollo Duck How about something like a 22ft Hurley or a 24ft achilles, I would imagine they are cheap ish to maintain.
dancrane
Well-known member
Spend some time in an Achilles 24 cabin before you pay actual money to own, berth, insure and refit one...
...it definitely looks and sails like a real yacht, and a bargain, but the appallingly cramped accommodation is the reason I was glad to get rid of mine.
...it definitely looks and sails like a real yacht, and a bargain, but the appallingly cramped accommodation is the reason I was glad to get rid of mine.
Hmm...having spent several days over Christmas scrapping a large GRP sailing dinghy, I'm wondering how you would propose to "just scrap" a ballasted 22-ft yacht. It's either a lot of work (and a lot of trips to the dump) or a very large bill to have someone get rid of it responsibly, for you. Don't underestimate the task.
wombat88
Well-known member
I've sold two boats in the last couple of months for deliberately low prices. I wanted them gone. The internet sites produced nutters and spam without exception. One boat was a clinker sailing dinghy with all its equipment, a 'floating restoration' type of project. The other was a 20ft motor boat in commission with a few months left of marina fees thrown. Both well known models/builders.
Having wasted time and money with Apollo Duck/FB market place/Boats and Outboards/ Ebay/ FAFB etc., I found buyers by asking around wherever I thought I might find interest.
Takes time and effort, you need to make it easy for the potential buyer to see what they are buying and understand that they are getting a worthwhile deal that is specific to them, by contrast the internet bombards a buyer with so much that they cannot see the wood from the trees.
Having wasted time and money with Apollo Duck/FB market place/Boats and Outboards/ Ebay/ FAFB etc., I found buyers by asking around wherever I thought I might find interest.
Takes time and effort, you need to make it easy for the potential buyer to see what they are buying and understand that they are getting a worthwhile deal that is specific to them, by contrast the internet bombards a buyer with so much that they cannot see the wood from the trees.
dancrane
Well-known member
Don't knock it - this is when not owning a boat or paying for her, very easily beats having one. Nobody likes fine warm conditions better than me, but a miserable start to the season is a great way to knock untamed optimism out of potential first-time owners. Not so good for sellers.
The trouble I've discovered (I always knew, but tried to fool myself for a while) is that most of the year in the UK is like this.
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srm
Well-known member
It almost became a tradition with my first boat that there would be some snow in the air when we antifouled or launched.
Refueler
Well-known member
I have always liked Southerly ... but seriously - there are 3 bridges between my home berth and getting to sea ...
My 25 is deck stepped mast and I have A frame to lower / raise mast ... but even so - its not something I want to do often !!
steve yates
Well-known member
Theres a lot of truthin that, and yet…. And yet…
I own two old boats, one was slowly done up over two years, and even now is out awaiting new rigging and engine, and the other is an even slower, more ardous and tortured project, thats been ashore for 4 years almost now!
But jumping in a dinghy for a 3 hr sail between todes just doesnt appeal to me.
I want the romance of casting off and heading away to who knows where, for days and weeks at a time. Spending hours idling at anchor or test driving new pubs in new places.
Thats sailing for me, the exploration side of it, the time out free feeling. It just cant be beaten, and its worth all the hassle and pita expense of ownership to be abl to just do that on your own terms, beholden to no-one.
The smart move if you buy any boat under £20k at least, is to forget ideas of depreciation and residual value. There is none!
You are paying to be able to do the above, and you will keep paying as long as you own the boat. When the time comes to lose it,
just get rid asap, its prob damn near worthless, and your cost of keeping it while holding out for some mythical fair price will soon overtake that number anyway.
Its not an investment, its burning cash in exchange for fun and freedom. So just burn what you can afford and what your fun and freedom is worth to you.
dancrane
Well-known member
In essence, I agree with all you say, Steve. In practice, however, I never got enough use out of mine in enjoyable weather. Bills and maintenance, and nowhere near enough enjoyable weather.
Plus I never had one decent night's sleep on board. The accommodation was pathetic. And the outboard well was a royal pain and the stanchions were wobbly as straws in a drink, and there was never time to get anywhere before it was time to turn round and go home. I'm so glad I got rid of it.
I'm oddly keen to get another, though...one which answers all those (and countless other) flaws. I must have Seasonal Optimistic Daftness Disorder.
With luck, Wansworth will get a boat soon so I can take his place as the chap who says he wants one, but not so much that he ever buys.
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