What boat for my circumstances?

[Fr J Hackett]

I wonder if the OP has given any thought about dropping the mast and raising it on his jaunts too and from launching.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A wheelhouse with standing headroom is going to be around 2 metres high, and it's floor will have to be above the waterline.

It's going to need a very clever designer to avoid such a structure looking unsightly on a boat as small as you are looking for.

Also, when the weather is not bad, wouldn't you rather be outside, enjoying the fresh air, than shut up in a box?

My LM27 is very elegant and can be sailed from tiller or wheel. Not fast but very seaworthy, and though we would have preferred a bigger boat, that is the best wheelhouse boat we could get for our money, though a Seadog 30 with its protectable centre cockpit did tempt me. We looked at Colvic Watson 26 as a stout motor sailer, but all the ones we saw had wheel steering only

We spent £12k on the LM27 then 10k upgrading but could have got one for less.

As to the OPs question: the pleasure of saving money on cheap boat is soon destroyed by the stress of managing unsuitable boat in adverse conditions. I think one need something sturdy up in those waters. The heavier and bigger the better

 

[boomerangben]

Standing back a moment to rationalise what we know. It seems to me the OP is determined to sail from home and not keep the boat on a pontoon. He wants a capable boat that will enable him in time to explore the local area and further afield. He is based on the Pentland Firth. He wants decent accommodation, possibly with a deck house. He has 20 acres to look after and a job.

It is an interesting conundrum. This could go a number of ways, depending on the palatability of the various compromises:

1, The OP finds an LM27/Fisher 25/Albin Vega/Centaur in budget, finds a suitable trailer and tractor, launches from home, accepts the slipway launch/recovery shenanigans and is happy. Result.

2, As above but soon gets fed up with the slipway shenanigans

3, As 1 above but goes over budget with maintenance/ making seaworthy.

4. Doesn’t find enough time to sail at all

Now of course I am projecting my own experience onto the OP and I of course don’t know him from Adam, so I apologise if I have misjudged him.

But as trailer sailor owner in the Outer Hebrides, I find 30 - 40 mins to launch and recover acceptable but get more use of the boat when it stays on the marina pontoons. I could upsize and have a more capable cruiser that will go further and in stronger winds, but the added expense vs added enjoyment doesn’t add up, especially when time constraints are added to the equation. Camping cruising as I would do is quite good fun and the ability to go places a bigger boat can’t is more valuable than a proper loo. I enjoy sailing for exploring hard to get to places whilst making efficient use of the wind in reasonable weather. I accept that the boat I have means I miss out some days when the wind is too strong, I have less than palatial accommodation and that marina fees are worth paying.

I think the OP has some big compromises to make and live with. Quite frankly I think option 2 is most likely and will realise the benefit of pontoons. But if launch from home is non negotiable, a lift keel boat is the best way to get on the water

 

[Refueler]

Post #103 brings up aspects ..

I have 3 main boats (others as well but lets stick with the 3) ...

1. Heavy seagoing motor sailer of 25ft ... could trailer with Land Rover but I don't want the hassle. 1m draft on Bilge Keels
2. Light weekender of 5.5m sail and outboard - twin lifting keels (0.2 to 1.4m draft)
3. Ex Soviet speedboat 5m with 20hp O/bd on back.

I have about 30 - 40 kms of deep / wide river which has many islands and areas to explore / bbq etc. So boats 2 + 3 get good use.
Boat 1 gets also frequent river trips but also mast down under bridges and then up again to sail the Baltic ... to Sweden and islands.

Post #103 makes me post about 'fun' and what gives such ...

Often on the river - I see a Wayfarer sized gaff dinghy sail past my house ... guy sitting in it just having a quiet and great sail away from all the crap. It makes me want a similar boat ...

The boat stays at the Kayak / Canoe Club just downriver from me. Takes him about 20mins to hoist and sail away .... 20mins when he gets back to derig.

I would love an Enterprise ... Wayfarer ... just to do similar ... open boat on the river.

I know this is not what OP is after ... but just following on from post #103 ..

 

[boomerangben]

Post #103 brings up aspects ..

I have 3 main boats (others as well but lets stick with the 3) ...

1. Heavy seagoing motor sailer of 25ft ... could trailer with Land Rover but I don't want the hassle. 1m draft on Bilge Keels
2. Light weekender of 5.5m sail and outboard - twin lifting keels (0.2 to 1.4m draft)
3. Ex Soviet speedboat 5m with 20hp O/bd on back.

I have about 30 - 40 kms of deep / wide river which has many islands and areas to explore / bbq etc. So boats 2 + 3 get good use.
Boat 1 gets also frequent river trips but also mast down under bridges and then up again to sail the Baltic ... to Sweden and islands.

Post #103 makes me post about 'fun' and what gives such ...

Often on the river - I see a Wayfarer sized gaff dinghy sail past my house ... guy sitting in it just having a quiet and great sail away from all the crap. It makes me want a similar boat ...

The boat stays at the Kayak / Canoe Club just downriver from me. Takes him about 20mins to hoist and sail away .... 20mins when he gets back to derig.

I would love an Enterprise ... Wayfarer ... just to do similar ... open boat on the river.

I know this is not what OP is after ... but just following on from post #103 ..

Funny you should mention wayfarer sized boat. I was thinking about that as I wrote my previous post. Perhaps an inexpensive boat like a wayfarer or drascombe (combined with existing 4x4) might test the OPs appetite for launching locally. There’s a lot of fun to be had in small boats

 

[Refueler]

Funny you should mention wayfarer sized boat. I was thinking about that as I wrote my previous post. Perhaps an inexpensive boat like a wayfarer or drascombe (combined with existing 4x4) might test the OPs appetite for launching locally. There’s a lot of fun to be had in small boats

Wayfarers have completed some amazing journeys ... cross channel ... cross N Sea .... as examples.

Magazine some years ago did investigation around clubs and marinas .... conclusion : Small boats do more.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Funny you should mention wayfarer sized boat. I was thinking about that as I wrote my previous post. Perhaps an inexpensive boat like a wayfarer or drascombe (combined with existing 4x4) might test the OPs appetite for launching locally. There’s a lot of fun to be had in small boats

Not so much on a cold windy and rainy day on the Pentland Firth there isn't. You only have to look at the photos the OP posted earlier of boats in Wick to see what people that sail their think is a requirement. None of those are suitable for trailer launch and recovery save perhaps one or two of the smaller ones ( Westerly Pagent)and then only once start and end of the season.
We have seen Refuellers contraption for raising and lowering the mast on his 25 foot boat in another thread, would anyone in their right minds be wanting to do that on a regular basis at the head of a slip?

 

[boomerangben]

Not so much on a cold windy and rainy day on the Pentland Firth there isn't. You only have to look at the photos the OP posted earlier of boats in Wick to see what people that sail their think is a requirement. None of those are suitable for trailer launch and recovery save perhaps one or two of the smaller ones ( Westerly Pagent)and then only once start and end of the season.
We have seen Refuellers contraption for raising and lowering the mast on his 25 foot boat in another thread, would anyone in their right minds be wanting to do that on a regular basis at the head of a slip?

I agree, but when presented with all the other constraints, I can’t help feeling that an incremental approach is needed and the compromise will be fewer sailing days due to weather. Having said that a spray dodger makes a huge difference. We had one on a wayfarer and also have one on my current 20’ boat

 

[Refueler]

Not so much on a cold windy and rainy day on the Pentland Firth there isn't. You only have to look at the photos the OP posted earlier of boats in Wick to see what people that sail their think is a requirement. None of those are suitable for trailer launch and recovery save perhaps one or two of the smaller ones ( Westerly Pagent)and then only once start and end of the season.
We have seen Refuellers contraption for raising and lowering the mast on his 25 foot boat in another thread, would anyone in their right minds be wanting to do that on a regular basis at the head of a slip?

Oi !! Less of the 'contraption' !!

I decided that I wanted a bit more sturdy A frame than many show on YT .. but its format is not different.

I can raise and lower single handed - what is a heavy mast for such boat.

 

[Tranona]

Certified to UK standards ????? Where'd that come from ?

Plenty of Scandy boats sell and move out of Scandy land ... with no problem at all .... of course if it moves out of EEA area - then VAT is due ... but that's it.
Depending on Flag state - yes you may have to add a few safety items ... but UK ?? UK as far as I am aware is still not one that requires standards on a private non commercial boat.

UK law post Brexit for EU boats, since 1997 for boats from outside EU for example US, which is why you see virtually no US boats in either EU or UK .

 

[Tranona]

Out of interest are there any boats under 30 foot that have covering for the steering area? I was just thinking if things got bad weather wise and I wanted to stay a little drier. Obviously the Colvic Watson 30 does, but its quite a bit out of my price range. Is there anything nearer to my price range?

Very few for 2 main reasons. First is that it is difficult from the space point of view to build a usable covered space with headroom and have a good sailing boat, so they tend to be motorsailers such as the one in your picture. Second they are much more expensive to build as they are heavier, more complex structurally and need bigger engines to move them (and less sailing ability). Consequently the real demand is very low when new so supply limited in the used market. Over 30' many of the constraints staring getting less and by 40' you can get good sailing boats with covered wheelhouses. The Atlanta 31 in one of your photos is a good example of where a dual purpose boat starts to get viable.

I am somewhat surprised that you are still hanging onto the idea that a boat of the size and type that is suitable for your expectations can be launched and recovered regularly just because you live a mile from a slip and use a tractor. It is simply not viable for all the reasons given by a whole host of posters here.

Better to go back to square one. You want a bigger boat that is suitable for coastal cruising in the NE. The photos show you what sort of boats other people use. There are plenty of boats in the 25-30' range that are suitable because in the 1960-1980s this was a huge expanding market and there are plenty of good boats now on the market well within your budget. One thing is a given, though and that is they have to be kept afloat because they are too big and heavy to launch and recover regularly - even with heavy duty boatyard equipment.

My suggestion is that you buy a modest tractor for your land use and forget the requirement to launch the boat. This may allow you to allocate more to the boat and a budget of £15k would open up a whole new range of boats you could buy and give you the leeway to transport a boat from out of your area, either by road or sea. The Centaur frequently mentioned would be a good starting point. You can buy a good example on the south or east coast with newish engine, good sails, updated gear etc for well under £10k. It will take a while to find one, or similar because there is a high demand - you are not the only one looking for such bargains! buying such a boat and keeping it afloat will give you far more opportunity to actually go sailing.

 

[Poignard]

I am trying to visualise a Wayfarer with a wheelhouse......

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Very few for 2 main reasons. First is that it is difficult from the space point of view to build a usable covered space with headroom and have a good sailing boat, so they tend to be motorsailers such as the one in your picture. Second they are much more expensive to build as they are heavier, more complex structurally and need bigger engines to move them (and less sailing ability). Consequently the real demand is very low when new so supply limited in the used market. Over 30' many of the constraints staring getting less and by 40' you can get good sailing boats with covered wheelhouses. The Atlanta 31 in one of your photos is a good example of where a dual purpose boat starts to get viable.

I am somewhat surprised that you are still hanging onto the idea that a boat of the size and type that is suitable for your expectations can be launched and recovered regularly just because you live a mile from a slip and use a tractor. It is simply not viable for all the reasons given by a whole host of posters here.

Better to go back to square one. You want a bigger boat that is suitable for coastal cruising in the NE. The photos show you what sort of boats other people use. There are plenty of boats in the 25-30' range that are suitable because in the 1960-1980s this was a huge expanding market and there are plenty of good boats now on the market well within your budget. One thing is a given, though and that is they have to be kept afloat because they are too big and heavy to launch and recover regularly - even with heavy duty boatyard equipment.

My suggestion is that you buy a modest tractor for your land use and forget the requirement to launch the boat. This may allow you to allocate more to the boat and a budget of £15k would open up a whole new range of boats you could buy and give you the leeway to transport a boat from out of your area, either by road or sea. The Centaur frequently mentioned would be a good starting point. You can buy a good example on the south or east coast with newish engine, good sails, updated gear etc for well under £10k. It will take a while to find one, or similar because there is a high demand - you are not the only one looking for such bargains! buying such a boat and keeping it afloat will give you far more opportunity to actually go sailing.

The voice of sanity

 

[Supertramp]

I am trying to visualise a Wayfarer with a wheelhouse......

A telephone box?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A telephone box?

I think a Portaloo might be more appropriate

 

[scottie]

I think a Portaloo might be more appropriate

Well very useful at least

 

[Kelpie]

On a small tiller steered boat you may be able to sit far enough forward to hide under the sprayhood in bad weather. Depends on cockpit layout.

Has the OP suggested where he would keep the boat whilst afloat?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

On a small tiller steered boat you may be able to sit far enough forward to hide under the sprayhood in bad weather. Depends on cockpit layout.

Has the OP suggested where he would keep the boat whilst afloat?

From what I read he intends to or wants to launch and recover at each use which may be for a few days or so.

 

[Tranona]

In an earlier post you asked about stability - which is a very relevant question but not an easy one to answer without knowing the context of the question and then an understanding of yacht design to get the relevance of the answer.

In the spirit of going back to square one and your basic question of what boat should you buy it is useful to look at the design categories for the design and construction of pleasure craft (the EU RCD and almost identical UKCA). This essentially identifies 4 categories of boats from D for use in sheltered waters, C for use in more open waters such as large lakes, river estuaries and inshore waters, B for coastal and offshore waters and A for ocean waters. The prime measure of suitability is ability to deal with wind speed and sea conditions which to an extent is determined by size, shape power and stability - plus of course the necessary structure and equipment to work in these conditions and not fall apart.

Although this standard was not actually in place when the boats you are looking at were built, the principles were valid and in general terms boats were designed and built according to those principles. The boats in the the size range you are looking at are in either C or B. In simple terms the boats that would be in C are essentially dinghy shapes but larger. So lifting keel trailer sailers in the 17-24' (and even larger but less common in the UK) and are in that category because the ability to handle wind and sea conditions, and ultimate stability is limited by the design, construction and weight. Category B boats are the ones that are suitable for your intended use and are mainly in the range of 22-30'. They are essentially scaled down ocean sailing boats with the main difference being in stability provided by heavier fixed keels of greater draft together with a larger sail plan to provide the power to deal with higher windspeeds and greater wave heights. The result is this sort of boat is much more complex and heavier to the point that it is no longer feasible to launch and recover regularly. Just to illustrate the differences. A 23' trailer sailor like a Jaguar 23 would have a draft of around a foot with the board up and a displacement of 1.4 tonnes and a Hurley 22 (a much smaller physically old style coastal cruiser) has a draft of 4' and displacement of 1.8 tonnes.

There are many other aspects of boat design expressed in numbers that are helpful in determining how capable a boat is in the type of use that you envisage, but in reality you can see just by looking at the basics what boats are suitable for you. Of course there are some designs that are at the margins and some boats that look similar can perform differently, but you won't go far wrong in looking at things like displacement, draft, ballast ratio, sail area and general design of the boat to get a focused short list - or more likely to screen out unsuitable ones when when browsing.

 

[srm]

This is an interesting thread but I am coming to the conclusion that the boat for the OP does not exist as there are too many conflicting requirements.

A steering shelter is a sensible concept for his waters, but on a boat that can be easily launched and recovered and towed home (even with mast up)? Well a Fisher 25 or similar Colvic might do with a purpose built trailer, but then he wants to sail. The Fishers are basically motor boats based on N Sea fishing boats. Motor with wind forward of the beam and blow along with wind abaft the beam.

I would also be concerned about the time it will take to hitch up, drive and launch, then reverse the procedure. A day sail will probably be reduced to three or four hours afloat. I used to take my small Prout catamaran out for an evening or afternoon sail out of Stromness marina as it was easy to slip the lines and berth again. Moving it to and from the field next to my house was a minimum of half a day, but then I was five miles from the harbour and had to drop the mast.

Someone made the suggestion of a large dinghy or Drascombe. This would be more practical to launch and recover for a day sail, but limits the sailing range. I have spent three days waiting on a mooring at the east end of Scapa Flow for suitable conditions to cross the east end of the Pentland Firth in the same 35ft offshore capable boat that I sailed out here to the Azores.