What Bilge keel with a dedicated heads compartment and limited draft and beam?

[Tranona]

You pretty much have the idea of what I want to do! I want to sail the UK, combing sea with rivers and canals. I have done my day skipper course, but am as interested in the canals and rivers as much as the sea and don't want multiple boats. I get about 2 weeks off work every month, so I can take my time on this trip. Keep turning left is pretty much what I want to do, but I do want to do some of the 7" canals. In the future I may want to do a channel crossing and do some of the European inland waterways. I actually love some of the smaller stretches of shallow inland water. I certainly don't want to be confined just to bigger inland waterways.

I completely understand what you are saying about the capability of these boats in bad weather. But I suppose what I was getting at, do any of them have a better build quality than others? I read a blog about someone who sailed from Scilly to Britany in a Kingfisher. That’s why I thought it may be a little more seaworthy than some of the others. That seems like quite a crossing and if things unexpectedly changed on the way you may be in trouble. So if you were unexpectedly caught out in bad weather, which of these boats would you rather be on if making it safely back to land was your only concern

People have done all sorts of things in those old boats. They were made at a time when sailing was far more adventurous than it perhaps is now. It is more about you and your preparation than the actual boat. You can now buy these boats for pocket money but do not underestimate the cost of gear to make them seaworthy and stand up to that intensity of usage. I agree that a good engine, preferably an inboard is essential, but that is difficult to find on such low value boats. Remember these boats are 50+ years old and while the basic structure is likely to be sound many will have been let go because of the cost of keeping old engines up to scratch. Best to buy one in working order rather than a project.

Out of your inevitably short list my choice would be a Mirror Mk II with a Yanmar 1GM inboard. Just about a simple and rugged as you can get.

 

[ducked]

They are all capable coastal cruisers. Capsizing formula and other extreme measures are largely irrelevant for this type of boat. No sensible person would ever go out in conditions where capsizing of a ballasted keel cabin boat like these would be an issue. All little boats are uncomfortable in anything above a F5/6. In modern terms they would be in Cat C - estuary and inshore coastal.

The Mirror is a bathtub with a bit of sail on top (particularly the MK1) so seagoing sailing ability is limited, but if you could find one with a decent inboard it would be probably the best for your needs. Watching this keepturningleft.co.uk will answer a lot of your questions as Dylan did much the same as you planned except maybe going into the inland 7' lock canals - although others have used the Mirror for this.

The Kingfisher and Vivacity are 1960s designs primarily intended as family weekend cruisers for use in estuaries and coastal waters. So you will find them still being used in areas of extensive relatively sheltered water like the East Coast and Solent - although the numbers are declining because few people value that kind of minimalist sailing on essentially valueless boats with running costs out of proportion to value. The Pandora and its developments were next generation for those who demanded more sailing performance.

Remember the canal locks are only nominally 7' which is why the recommended maximum beam is 6'10" so there is no guarantee that this type of boat, except the Mirror will actually get through all the locks.

OMG

Its TRUE! My running costs are INEVITABLY going to be OUT OF PROPORTION to value!

THE HORROR!

Still, could have been worse.

The boat was initially Craigslisted for free, but I was able to shrewdly negotiate paying 500 quid, so reducing THE HORROR from an infinite disproportion, to one that could at least be measured.

Please, no compliments. Just an Art Of The Deal thing, appropriate as we tiptoe through the tentatively toxic tulips of TrumpWorld2

 

[tommy2]

You can now buy these boats for pocket money but do not underestimate the cost of gear to make them seaworthy and stand up to that intensity of usage.

What costs are you referring to? If the basic structure is fine, is it not enough to engage in basic maintenance such as painting / anti fouling? Window seal replacement. Granted you have sails / rigging, but you have that on any boat. Plus sails don't last forever on any boat. Then there is engine maintenance, but how is that any different to maintaining an engine on an older car?

 

[Refueler]

What costs are you referring to? If the basic structure is fine, is it not enough to engage in basic maintenance such as painting / anti fouling? Window seal replacement. Granted you have sails / rigging, but you have that on any boat. Plus sails don't last forever on any boat. Then there is engine maintenance, but how is that any different to maintaining an engine on an older car?

I'm with you .... its standard sort of posts when people ask about older boats ... out trots the 'be wary of costs to make boat seaworthy etc.' ... but in reality - there are so many boats out there quite happily sailing around with owners blissfully unaware their boats do not meet standards of some !

My 1975 25ft has an engine that is ... best I can say .. looks like a lump of rust ... Perkins 4-107 ..... purrs along all day and every day ...
Sails, from previous owners time - I bought that boat about 24yrs ago ..... main is still in use - the genny was replaced 2yrs ago after it was damaged in strong winds and furling locked up.
Standing rigging is still from previous owners time - apart from one cap shroud replaced that was damaged when it got 'snagged' on dock wall - mast was down and shroud was loose ...

I am sure that if I was to offer for sale - I would be presented with a list from a buyer trying to bring my price down. I am not selling and I am not planning any replacements of above. I am confident of the boats capabilities and happy to cross Baltics with her ...

 

[Stemar]

I'm with you .... its standard sort of posts when people ask about older boats ... out trots the 'be wary of costs to make boat seaworthy etc.' ... but in reality - there are so many boats out there quite happily sailing around with owners blissfully unaware their boats do not meet standards of some !

I agree, but getting a neglected boat up to a sensible state can be more expensive than someone who has to ask the question is likely to realise, so better to be pessimistic. If that frightens them off, it's perhaps no bad thing. If it doesn't, they're going in with their eyes open, and, just maybe, could get some pleasant surprises.

There's also a world of difference between a full restoration and getting an old boat into a fit state to go to sea, just the same as the difference in restoring a classic car and keeping a 15-year-old Focus on the road for another year. My boats have always been the marine equivalent of that old Ford, with the marine equivalent of the consequent rust and filler, but I'd hate someone to think they can bring a boat back to showroom condition on my budget.

 

[Goldie]

Remember the canal locks are only nominally 7' which is why the recommended maximum beam is 6'10" so there is no guarantee that this type of boat, except the Mirror will actually get through all the locks.

Even then, no space for fenders!

 

[JerryRhum]

Just a quick note on the 'Mirror Offshore having a separate heads' thing. Technically true, but not exactly spacious:

Either keep the door open


or contort for privacy.


Other than that, a great little boat for canals.

Mine lives on the GUC and only once have I got stuck on a mud bank. That was due to a badly driven hire boat coming straight at me at ramming speed. Even then, a bit of strategic placement of passengers and some rocking back and forth and we were soon afloat again.

The other big advantage is that, when I want to head back the way I came, I can just jump on to the towpath and spin it round by hand.

 

[Dellquay13]

What costs are you referring to? If the basic structure is fine, is it not enough to engage in basic maintenance such as painting / anti fouling? Window seal replacement. Granted you have sails / rigging, but you have that on any boat. Plus sails don't last forever on any boat. Then there is engine maintenance, but how is that any different to maintaining an engine on an older car?

I thought that too.
1980 bilge keel 24 foot.
Covid purchase price £3200 2021, a survey was considered too expensive for a cheap boat that had been afloat for the last 3 years.
Estimated repair costs in 4 years £6000, not including any berthing or annual antifoul or engine maintenance.

Stern gland replaced, new cutlass bearing. Cracked stern tube replaced. Rudder rebuilt with stainless tang rewelded back on. Anchor locker reglassed to stop a big leak. Replaced crazed windows. Replaced opaque steering compass. Replaced rudder head stock too much play. New Sails. New standing rigging. New running rigging. New DSc vhf. New lever halyard jammers. New mainsheet traveller clam cleats. New engine seacock and skin fitting. New jib sheave at the masthead. New windex at the masthead. New washboards. New sea toilet. New mattress foam and dri-mat. Portable compressor fridge. Chinaspacher install. Dan bouy and life ring. New jib car sheaves. Non slip deck paint. New switch panels. New engine and domestic batteries.
I could go on, but If I can point at it on the boat and it is screwed down, it has either been replaced or repaired,
Of course this has all needed doing over four years, it would have been cheaper and easier to do it all before first launch.
That keeps my cheap old boat in a seaworthy condition for regular coastal trips around Pembrokeshire most months of the year.

 

[Daydream believer]

View attachment 189861
You should remember to take your trousers down first

 

[Blueboatman]

When I had an ‘inexpensive’ 21footer I removed, in no particular order, the inboard engine and all its ancillary crap, the galley sink, the water tank/ plastic jugs, the toilet, the array of toilet chemicals, one below waterline seacock, one exhaust outlet, one driveshaft hole for the motor leg..
It was enough.

I added simplicity and it worked.

Be interesting to see what Tommy does as his ideas develop, if he buys a boat.

The real, huge, elephant-in-the-room biggie with small boats in and around this fair isle is they are so very weather and season dependant for moving and living on.

An affordable effective and safe form of cabin heat would be of far more interest to me than a closed off loo, for example..

 

[mrming]

With regard to being in bad weather. Forecasting is good for 3 days now, so if you don’t rush you can avoid it. Sensible day sails in the right weather and you’ll be fine in a well maintained small boat.

 

[fredrussell]

Just a quick note on the 'Mirror Offshore having a separate heads' thing. Technically true, but not exactly spacious:
View attachment 189860
Either keep the door open

View attachment 189861
or contort for privacy.

National cat swinging contest cancelled folks.