Volvo TAMD 73/74 and 75 ECU - Cause for concern?

[PowerYachtBlog]

There goes the Volvo after market service in the dust bin which a lot of people believe in. (me included).

That is how you control 90% of stern drive sales in 2005 sub 14 meter and now have lost 50% of stern drives sales to outboards ten-fifteen years later.

 

[petem]

There goes the Volvo after market service in the dust bin which a lot of people believe in. (me included).

That is how you control 90% of stern drive sales in 2005 sub 14 meter and now have lost 50% of stern drives sales to outboards ten-fifteen years later.

How can a decision they're making now have killed the sterndrive market over the past 15 years?

If VP don't resume production then it's pretty significant for all owners of VP powered boats with ECU's. If these EDC I boats set a precedent then we can assume the same for all subsequent engines in time (D3's, D4, D6's, etc). And that would mean a reduction in value of boats powered by these engines too, as they slide into obsolescence.

Personally, I'm not concerned as I have confidence in someone having the nouse to manufacture an aftermarket replacement.

 

[n.herring]

We had a failed ECU earlier in the year. Interestingly, it didn't completely fail, it ran the engines but wouldn't display the neutral light on the control pad and also caused gear engagement issues. I believe the ECU damage was caused by running the engine with a knackered battery (unknown to me at the time).

I've actually kept the ECU and will be testing it on another KAD44 engine. If it doesn't work on that engine then I might see if I can remove the potting as per @smdts post above.

Good luck with this Pete, I would think heat should do the trick as long as it is lower than solder melt point should be ok, if not test a few solvents and there are "silicone removers" on the market which will not desolve silicone but will soften it, good luck and will be interesting to see your results, Neil

 

[vas]

are you sure it's cast in silicone? I'd expect it to be epoxy, not much point using silicone (imho)
A failed waterwitch I took apart last winter was cast in some sort of v.hard and opaque black epoxy, a real pain to take apart, but considering I didn't care if I destroy the pcb underneath job was a bit easier. Heat from a heatgun does make wonders btw.

 

[petem]

are you sure it's cast in silicone? I'd expect it to be epoxy, not much point using silicone (imho)
A failed waterwitch I took apart last winter was cast in some sort of v.hard and opaque black epoxy, a real pain to take apart, but considering I didn't care if I destroy the pcb underneath job was a bit easier. Heat from a heatgun does make wonders btw.

It's like a very hard silicone. I think it's softer than a hard epoxy.

 

[n.herring]

It's like a very hard silicone. I think it's softer than a hard epoxy.

Either way it will be interesting, good luck pete

 

[smdts]

Yes, i went through 7 wire brush wheels to clear around 2 square inches of resin.
I gota pack of 100 on aliexpress for £15 though so it was still more cost effective than scrapping my boat because the ecu has been unavailable for a while and the last secondhand ecu I saw changed hands for £1800
Putting the thing in the oven on slow cook setting really softened it up. It didnt soften the mrs though, she wasnt happy.
When troubleshooting without a schematic remember the basics, semiconductors usually fail leaky or short, resistors usually fail open, capacitors can be open, short or just high esr.
A very useful tool when flying blind is a curve tracer like an old huntron tracker.
If you cant borrow one or find a cheap used one there are schematics to build your own diy one if you have access to a scope with x-y mode.

 

[kashurst]

There is a distinct possibility that the OEM ECU supplier may not actually be able to build new ECUs. The ECU was designed back in the late 1990s with the then available technology. The electronic components, especially the microprocessor and memory devices, are possibly no longer available off the shelf as they will almost certainly have been superceded. 20 years is a long time in electronics.
OK they can redesign the essential circuit with latest micro chips- pretty easy. But the original software may have been written in machine code not "C" or another translatable language. In which case it will have to be re-written and then certified.
I suspect the code is not that complicated - it's a modified mechanical injection pump with sensors to make sure it doesn't do anything nasty like spout black smoke. Problem is someone will have to write it and then test it. No idea if there are any laws governing this.

If I was Volvo, I would be talking to a third party as an opportunity for them to take advantage of utilise. Then Volvo can say a solution will be available but they are not responsible. PR problem removed. After all their main business is selling new engines and drives. Those customers mostly don't care about 15 -20 year old engines.

But you never know............

 

[vas]

very good points!
didn't think of it from the components availability perspective...
In theory the co that did it should be able to redesign and then "translate" the code to modern architecture.
certification though is another kettle of fish...
unless of course said company finds a box of goodies hidden in a cellar with old stock of processors, chips and pcbs

V.

 

[petem]

It's worth remembering that the main difference between the KAD43 and KAD44 (and mechanical / electronic TAMD73/4/5) is that the latter has an electronically controlled (direct?) injection pump hence the need for an ECU. I believe the KAD44 pumps are either Bosch VP37 or VP44 which are ubiquitous and widely used in diesel cars of that era (e.g. VW Passat). There are aftermarket ECU's for these engines (e.g. www.aftermarketecushop.com/product/1952493/diesel-ecu-for-vp37-edc-fuelpump) which would at least get the engine going using the existing sensors (albeit with some remapping).

You'd then 'only' have to worry about controlling the supercharger, gears engagement, error codes, in gear start prevention, etc).

More info on the pump here: Volkswagen group Tdi engine with VP 37 injection pump - Appropedia: The sustainability wiki

How hard can it be!

 

[petem]

very good points!
didn't think of it from the components availability perspective...
In theory the co that did it should be able to redesign and then "translate" the code to modern architecture.
certification though is another kettle of fish...
unless of course said company finds a box of goodies hidden in a cellar with old stock of processors, chips and pcbs

V.

Vas, need I say more (essentially, this is the same engine and pump).....

Arduino powered ECU for diesel engines

 

[petem]

If I was Volvo, I would be talking to a third party as an opportunity for them to take advantage of utilise. Then Volvo can say a solution will be available but they are not responsible. PR problem removed. After all their main business is selling new engines and drives. Those customers mostly don't care about 15 -20 year old engines.

If VP don't re-manufacture then the 'right' thing for them to do would be to release the existing ECU software under an open source license that would allow 3rd parties to build replacement ECU's and absolve VP of any ongoing responsibility / liability.

 

[jon and michie]

If VP don't re-manufacture then the 'right' thing for them to do would be to release the existing ECU software under an open source license that would allow 3rd parties to build replacement ECU's and absolve VP of any ongoing responsibility / liability.

Pete - That would be the right thing to do.
Imho I think seasoned boaters would start to think twice at buying a boat with a Volvo engine in if they knew that critical parts are not available - and good opportunity for the rival engine builders

 

[kashurst]

Vas, need I say more (essentially, this is the same engine and pump).....

Arduino powered ECU for diesel engines

Very interesting - that Bosch pump is a derivative of the KAD electronic pump. Out of interest if someone made such a thing, would anyone actually want to buy it?
Problem seems to me is not creating a suitable ECU to replace the Volvo one, it is ensuring that it is safe to use and won't blow up your engine. It is also tricky to find the actual ECU connector so a new engine wiring harness would be needed. (or a fair bit of cuttting and soldering)
Without extensive dyno testing it is going to be hard to verify the controller is safe. It is difficult to map a diesel engine as they don't have air mass meters or oxygen sensors - if they did it could be self tuning. Can you get oxgen sensors for diesel engines these days?
I did consider the idea of creating a simple injection pump controller and using an exhaust gas temperature sensor as a maximum load/work limit. That could possible remove the need for dyno testing as it wouldn't let the operator over fuel to compensate for over load at any given RPM
This would make sure you couldn't melt the exhaust valves and burn up the turbo if the hull/props were fouled.
In effect fuel injection control would be related to desired engine speed, boost pressure - to limit black smoke and engine load via the exhaust gas sensor so you couldn't melt the turbo.

 

[petem]

Very interesting - that Bosch pump is a derivative of the KAD electronic pump. Out of interest if someone made such a thing, would anyone actually want to buy it?
Problem seems to me is not creating a suitable ECU to replace the Volvo one, it is ensuring that it is safe to use and won't blow up your engine. It is also tricky to find the actual ECU connector so a new engine wiring harness would be needed. (or a fair bit of cuttting and soldering)
Without extensive dyno testing it is going to be hard to verify the controller is safe. It is difficult to map a diesel engine as they don't have air mass meters or oxygen sensors - if they did it could be self tuning. Can you get oxgen sensors for diesel engines these days?
I did consider the idea of creating a simple injection pump controller and using an exhaust gas temperature sensor as a maximum load/work limit. That could possible remove the need for dyno testing as it wouldn't let the operator over fuel to compensate for over load at any given RPM
This would make sure you couldn't melt the exhaust valves and burn up the turbo if the hull/props were fouled.
In effect fuel injection control would be related to desired engine speed, boost pressure - to limit black smoke and engine load via the exhaust gas sensor so you couldn't melt the turbo.

I don't think that the KAD44 is a derivative of the VP37, I think it's the same physical thing (i.e. the KAD44/300 pump is a Bosch VP37)! That's why the Bosch dealers are able to supply them 'off the shelf' (albeit they have to be set-up as KAD44 pumps).

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

How can a decision they're making now have killed the sterndrive market over the past 15 years?

If VP don't resume production then it's pretty significant for all owners of VP powered boats with ECU's. If these EDC I boats set a precedent then we can assume the same for all subsequent engines in time (D3's, D4, D6's, etc). And that would mean a reduction in value of boats powered by these engines too, as they slide into obsolescence.

Personally, I'm not concerned as I have confidence in someone having the nouse to manufacture an aftermarket replacement.

Ok its two different engines. But with the cost of parts going out of the roof, and the DP-G stern drive not being so reliable in its early life did help, for the outboard market to gain traction and have huge success.
In around 2005 the OB was only existent for centre consoles and ribs up to ten meters, look where we are today. If you dominate the stern drive market and lose over half of it to outboards something has gone wrong in the last years. Also just be understanding that the American market where average use is 100/200 hours and the season (boat usage) is much longer is not as forgiven as the European one, where average use is 50 hours per year.

What I wanted to mean is that Volvo has been shooting itself in the foot not only in 2020, but it is something which we have seen happening in the last ten years.

 

[DavidJ]

I think if I had a D3,D4 or D6 I’d be asking Father Christmas for a spare ECU
I predict a panic rush and inevitable stock out.

 

[kashurst]

I don't think that the KAD44 is a derivative of the VP37, I think it's the same physical thing (i.e. the KAD44/300 pump is a Bosch VP37)! That's why the Bosch dealers are able to supply them 'off the shelf' (albeit they have to be set-up as KAD44 pumps).

There are quite a few VP37 style pumps
the kad 44 pump is:

0460426996

Enj. Pompası

Distribütör Pompa - VE-EDC

VE6/12E1900L749-1

VOL 3581916

the kad 300 pump is:

0460426995

Enj. Pompası

Distribütör Pompa - VE-EDC

VE6/12E1900L749-2

VOL 3583207

not sure what the differences are.

 

[smdts]

If you are thinking of putting a car ecu on there and are worried about remapping to suit there are a lot of knowledgeable guys on ecuedit.com checksumm.com and chiptuners.org there are guys on there who have written reliable maps from scratch where engines and injection systems have been altered beyond all recognition, with enough time and effort I'm sure a solution could be found. Get it polished enough and you could market the solution and make a few quid from your hard work.

 

[petem]

Ok its two different engines. But with the cost of parts going out of the roof, and the DP-G stern drive not being so reliable in its early life did help, for the outboard market to gain traction and have huge success.
In around 2005 the OB was only existent for centre consoles and ribs up to ten meters, look where we are today. If you dominate the stern drive market and lose over half of it to outboards something has gone wrong in the last years. Also just be understanding that the American market where average use is 100/200 hours and the season (boat usage) is much longer is not as forgiven as the European one, where average use is 50 hours per year.

What I wanted to mean is that Volvo has been shooting itself in the foot not only in 2020, but it is something which we have seen happening in the last ten years.

Outdrives obviously have two main benefits over outdrives, firstly then can be lifted when not in use and secondly they're a lot simpler to remove for servicing. The later ones seem to be very quite and refined and I assume they're cheaper to service? Only downsides are that they run on petrol and take up bathing platform space (limiting tender storage and deployment).

I'd certainly be looking at outboards for a future sub 40ft boat.