Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[PowerYachtBlog]

There is a bit of confusion here on resin and what it delivers for osmosis. I am trying to see what I can remember into this.

First of all boat builders have five type of resins to choose, from Polyester, Isophtalic, Vinilester Poly based, Vinilester Epoxy based, and Epoxy. The more you go up the list the better the protection of water infiltration is in between the layers of the hulls, and the costlier it gets to build. Vinilester appeared in the nineties as a cheaper variation to Epoxy, and was splitted in two variants more or less in 2005.
Most known builders build with Isophtalic resin (see Cranchi, Princess and Fairline), other build with Vinilester Poly (see Sunseeker and Azimut), other high end builders build with Vinilester Epoxy see (Viking USA, Hatteras etc).

Old 1970s Polyester hardly blistered, things changed in late 70s (oil crisis polyester mix was changed) and all resins had catalsyt rate reduced in 2002. Not only for health reasons during build but also for fire retarding reasons.
I remember working on a couple new Fairlines and Azimut around 2002/04 which had a lot of large chipping areas all around the hull.
You would never have seen this before 2002, and you still see it today on some builds. Last I saw it was on a new Princess last year.

Gelcoat has little to do with osmosis, it is more what you get behind it, the resin reaction that creates osmotic pressure to the infiltration water etc etc
Gelcoat is a porous paint even worse then standard car spray paint but is the most cost effective time saving way to paint a boat without actually painting it.
Yes some builders see Ferretti and Fairline use to do it (do not know if they still do) with a roller on hull bottom instead of spray, saying it covers better but it still remains a paint with invisible pouring occurring,
Problems can be worse nowadays with fully cored boats (below waterline), more so if Balsa but even with some PVC the result can be the same.
It will also be whether your balsa is end grain or not or if your core is water resistant or not.

One last thing gel-coat thickness is not decided by the builder but by the quality of same.
For example some US boat builder have the most perfect gel-coat you see (e,g Sea Ray) , but the maker of the gel-coat will give a maximum thickness to .5 mm.
In my experience the more the gel-coat has a car like spray finish the more thin it is. On the other hand the more less shiny (raw) the gel-coat is the more thickness it can afford.
If you go above the nos of the gel-coat manufacturer the gel-coat will start the craze, hairline crack etc etc. See why a lot of new boats crack in corners.

Anyways not to go against what that builder said to M, but I think some things need to be corrected.

 

[MapisM]

Thanks W for your interesting overview.
For the records, the debate I had with those builders (both well known to yourself btw: Raffaelli and DP) was somewhat limited in scope, because we discussed their own boats/experiences and a more limited timeframe (late 80s/early noughties).
With all due respect for boats built in the 70s, I don't think I'll stretch that far with my searches...!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Thanks W for your interesting overview.
For the records, the debate I had with those builders (both well known to yourself btw: Raffaelli and DP) was somewhat limited in scope, because we discussed their own boats/experiences and a more limited timeframe (late 80s/early noughties).
With all due respect for boats built in the 70s, I don't think I'll stretch that far with my searches...!

Yes 70s is an interesting era. You have old Hatteras which had a patent for blistering (lasted till the nineties), old Riva's the same also but to a much lesser extent, and then some builders like the old Posillipo's Tobago and Martinica and Bertram which hardly ever blistered.
Yes if you left a Bertram three years in the water without protection they did blister as everything does in such a long period.

Still I always say that osmosis is the less evil that any boat can suffer, especially nowadays which is a problem which can be turned for the better with Epoxy and so on.

ps. I think I never saw DPs blister, but I do not see much of them, I saw only one old early eighties Raffaelli Regal blister and was left like three years in the water.

 

[BartW]

Regarding the third pair of engines; his comment was that the hours are not the problem but rather the years, as the inevitable corrosion on the various components of the cooling system wreck an engine in 15-20 years(!?).

completely agree,

some poster onhere look mainly at "engine running hours"
some others consider "fuel burn" figures as a good indicator for useage,

imho another important factor for valuing boat engine's condition, is just its age,
meaning that during the years, many components suffer corrosion in the salty air environment they are in,
some metal parts are vulnerable from that,
rubber and plastic parts become worn, ...

 

[BartW]

I just cannot understand why there is not a big industry refitting these old solid hulls.

I believe the answer to this question is correctly explained in the last few posts here,

just to sumerise;

competition between (new) MY builders is very strong today
so all look at methods to reduce labour cost,
and look at assembling optimation procedures etc...
even than its difficult to make the business profitteable (for some of them)

so starting from a "old solid hull", refitting with all the traditional labour intense methods
not even mentioning the disassembling of the old stuff
will cost a fortune on labour
and then its probably a nice ship, but still a "old" boat

for clarification;
refitting a old nice boat,
this is what I have been doing the last 5 years,
but just as a expensive hobby
and in between enjoying the pleasure of using that old lady

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

We are not at that stage yet entirely. Classic yachts restoration is growing in some places and so so in others.

For example here in Malta we have a growing fan-base for the old Riva Superamerica's (42, 45, 48, 50), in Rome area Italy is about the Posillipo 42 Martinicia and 47 Tobago's (Grp series).
In Naples it is about Itama 38, in Genoa about Magnum's 45 and 53 from the 1980s early 90s.
In USA old Bertrams 54, and the 31 have big fanbase and if correctly refitted the small one can make you a profit. Same for the old Hatteras 38 SF.

It will be interesting if old boat ownership refitting can grow out and become a business as that of classic cars in the near future.
I know some yards do it and resell with success for a small tiny profit, by refitting a boat or two a year.

What is sure is that in the last 5-7 years less boats where build, so I am not sure if demand surges as it was in 2000 - 7 there is enough used boats around to cater.
So I think if someone can create a shop yard for refitting the thing might work out just as good for them.
And considering that most 55 foot boats cost north of 1 million nowadays, I am sure it can work out much cheaper to that.

 

[MapisM]

And considering that most 55 foot boats cost north of 1 million nowadays, I am sure it can work out much cheaper to that.

This is sure as hell!
And you're talking of 55 footers. Just think of the money that could fetch for instance that SL82 of the "US bargain" thread, if brought back in spic 'n span conditions, even in the currently still depressed market.
For a yard which is very busy during spring & summer, but has a lot of spare time available in winter, such refitting could make sense even if the final income would just be enough to cover their fixed costs.
And I think it's safe to bet that there's room left for a decent profit anyway.

That said, I don't think we'll ever see with boats some quotations anywhere near the silly values of some classic cars (with just a few noticeable exception, like wooden Rivas).
But also the guy I emailed for that SL82 already agreed that it could be a business idea. He's just too busy atm to fly to the US, check the boat, arrange shipment and so forth.
Otoh, who knows, she might be still on the market at the end of the summer (possibly at an even lower price).
For the little I know of the average US buyers of 80+ feet boats, I can't imagine that there will be a cue forming to buy her. We'll see...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think in the USA like in many other places it depends where it is located.

Those Sanlorenzo 82s are still super good looking, may be in its size she is still the best looker.
SL 82 was launched in 1996 and produced till 2014, modernized a bit in 2007 (SL) and now replaced by the SL86.

Actually in my book and that size I cannot think of a better looking boat then an SL82. Possibly only the wooden Diano 24/25 (end 90s builds with the all around window) I would say is nicer in my book, and a Maiora 24 a distant third.

Speaking of a re-fit yards, I heard of a one next to you in Cagliari, Sardegna which does this job with a couple of the end eighties Mochi 46 and 44. Selling them for 100k plus.
I am sure they did sold a nice refitted 44 a couple years ago, and they made a 46 which was refitted and still is in the market?

 

[MapisM]

100% agreed re. the SL82, and also Diano.

But I haven't heard of the yard in CA that you mention, and btw I'll be there in less than a week.
Actually, Mochis are not so high in my personal ranking, but I might check what they are up to, anyway.
Can you possibly give me their name (also via email, if for some reason you don't want to publish it)?

 

[Divemaster1]

If you're brave, you can have a look here ...

http://www.yachtauctions.com/inventory/

 

[MapisM]

A small update, 7 months later....

I am updating this thread for an odd reason, sort of.
In fact, nothing changed in the meantime, with regard to what I said previously.
So much so, that the boat I'm considering with more interest lately was actually built a few years BEFORE (!) my old tub.

But the reason why I thought of revamping this debate is completely different, i.e. the opportunity I had today to make an analogy with cars.

Now, when comparing flybridge boats built in the 90s with the latest models of comparable size, there are differences, of course.
Some of them for the better, but most of them (imho) just meant to cut production costs - as I previously explained.
Regardless, the "value" of those differences where either the new or the old boat is better, is obviously a matter of personal preferences/priorities. So, each to their own on that.
But what strikes me is that the overall feeling you get onboard, say, a mid 90s AZ 58 and a modern AZ 54 (whose sizes are pretty much comparable) is NOT radically different.
And I could make dozens of other examples with other yards/models.

Back to cars, a friend of mine who is a bit of a luddite (yeah, even more than myself!) still drives a M-B that he inherited from his father: a mid 90s S500, W140 series.
Pretty much among the best stuff the automotive industry could deliver, back in its days.
And if well maintained - as this one is - still an extremely solid and very comfortable car, 30 years later.
I drove it several times, and I always enjoyed it.

But today, I had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S.
Now, don't ask me how it will be in 30 year's time, because I don't know - though I suspect that she isn't built as a brick shithouse, at least not as much as the W140 was.
Otoh, THAT is a car which completely redefines the driving experience, regardless of the fact that it isn't necessarily (and doesn't pretend to be, in fact) everybody's cup.

Bottom line, if any boatbuilder is reading this, mark my words:
Do you think that your industry went through some bad years lately? Well, think again, because you ain't seen nothing yet.
Unless you find a way to deliver at least a fraction of the breakthrough innovations that other industries (not just automotive!) have been able to come up with lately, the market for new pleasure boats will shrink even further, in the foreseeable future.
And not because the world is running short of folks with more money than sense - to some extent, the opposite is true - but because you have nothing attractive enough to offer, even to them, let alone to those with money AND sense...!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Bottom line, if any boatbuilder is reading this, mark my words:
Do you think that your industry went through some bad years lately? Well, think again, because you ain't seen nothing yet.
Unless you find a way to deliver at least a fraction of the breakthrough innovations that other industries (not just automotive!) have been able to come up with lately, the market for new pleasure boats will shrink even further, in the foreseeable future.
And not because the world is running short of folks with more money than sense - to some extent, the opposite is true - but because you have nothing attractive enough to offer, even to them, let alone to those with money AND sense...!

I couldnt agree more and I have been trying to say the same on this forum when the opportunity arises for a while now. If the motorboat industry thinks its going to be selling plastic fantastic tubs powered by enormous gas guzzling engines, and priced at megabucks money, in 20yrs time it better think again. I'm no ecomentalist by a long chalk but social, environmental, legal and cost pressures are going to make this kind of product unsustainable in the long term and the motorboat industry must spend a load of money on R & D to find a better way of making and powering its product and if it wants to expand its market it better find a cheaper way of doing it to.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I am updating this thread for an odd reason, sort of.
In fact, nothing changed in the meantime, with regard to what I said previously.
So much so, that the boat I'm considering with more interest lately was actually built a few years BEFORE (!) my old tub.

But the reason why I thought of revamping this debate is completely different, i.e. the opportunity I had today to make an analogy with cars.

Now, when comparing flybridge boats built in the 90s with the latest models of comparable size, there are differences, of course.
Some of them for the better, but most of them (imho) just meant to cut production costs - as I previously explained.
Regardless, the "value" of those differences where either the new or the old boat is better, is obviously a matter of personal preferences/priorities. So, each to their own on that.
But what strikes me is that the overall feeling you get onboard, say, a mid 90s AZ 58 and a modern AZ 54 (whose sizes are pretty much comparable) is NOT radically different.
And I could make dozens of other examples with other yards/models.

Back to cars, a friend of mine who is a bit of a luddite (yeah, even more than myself!) still drives a M-B that he inherited from his father: a mid 90s S500, W140 series.
Pretty much among the best stuff the automotive industry could deliver, back in its days.
And if well maintained - as this one is - still an extremely solid and very comfortable car, 30 years later.
I drove it several times, and I always enjoyed it.

But today, I had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S.
Now, don't ask me how it will be in 30 year's time, because I don't know - though I suspect that she isn't built as a brick shithouse, at least not as much as the W140 was.
Otoh, THAT is a car which completely redefines the driving experience, regardless of the fact that it isn't necessarily (and doesn't pretend to be, in fact) everybody's cup.

Bottom line, if any boatbuilder is reading this, mark my words:
Do you think that your industry went through some bad years lately? Well, think again, because you ain't seen nothing yet.
Unless you find a way to deliver at least a fraction of the breakthrough innovations that other industries (not just automotive!) have been able to come up with lately, the market for new pleasure boats will shrink even further, in the foreseeable future.
And not because the world is running short of folks with more money than sense - to some extent, the opposite is true - but because you have nothing attractive enough to offer, even to them, let alone to those with money AND sense...!

Well interesting and a lot of it true but....hydrodynamics is a limiting factor, if you want go faster then more powerful engines are the answer. And this forum is full of 'where is my extra 2 knots of top end speed'. Bigger is even more important, the latest thread was all about four bedrooms and don't start anyone off on internal staircases. And while everyone wants styling to improve go radical and we choke on our cornflakes. So to sum up, new and improved as long as it's not radical and different. So we get evolution not revolution or we get Sunseeker

 

[rafiki_]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

and the motorboat industry must spend a load of money on R & D to find a better way of making and powering its product and if it wants to expand its market it better find a cheaper way of doing it to.

Mike, therein lies the rub! The boat building industry spends very little money on R&D. I would guess that the majority of marine R&D spend goes on electronics. Garmin, Raymarine etc. A bit with the larger engine manufacturers as they have to improve emissions, and next to nothing on the hull.

 

[Whitelighter]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Well interesting and a lot of it true but....hydrodynamics is a limiting factor, if you want go faster then more powerful engines are the answer. And this forum is full of 'where is my extra 2 knots of top end speed'. Bigger is even more important, the latest thread was all about four bedrooms and don't start anyone off on internal staircases. And while everyone wants styling to improve go radical and we choke on our cornflakes. So to sum up, new and improved as long as it's not radical and different. So we get evolution not revolution or we get Sunseeker

Not true - you have foiling technology, and propulsion efficiencies all of which will deliver speed for less energy
Yellowfin for example was a technology that worked, but needed lots of money ploughing in to make it viable so it failed.

Multihulks aren't popular now but they can provide big efgiciencies - you just need a mainstream builder to invest but none have the cash to take the risk. It's possible, but it's finding the appetite to do so

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Not true - you have foiling technology, and propulsion efficiencies all of which will deliver speed for less energy
Yellowfin for example was a technology that worked, but needed lots of money ploughing in to make it viable so it failed.

Multihulks aren't popular now but they can provide big efgiciencies - you just need a mainstream builder to invest but none have the cash to take the risk. It's possible, but it's finding the appetite to do so

All true but multihulls are hard to find a parking space for and other radical hull designs might lose internal space. And you can't sell radical propulsion to a forum who will only countenance shafts

 

[oldgit]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

We may not be atypical of any body or anything but our club has over 100 boats on our moorings.
Some boats are still in the possesion of their original owners,many bought new during the hey days of the 1980s.
We do not have a single new boat on the fleet or anything close.
The last member to buy new, went from large Pearl to a vast Sunseeker
Not exactly your average buyer.
What happened. ?

 

[Wavey]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

What happened. ?

Maybe people's aspirations have changed?

Back in the hey days of the 1980s that OG refers to how many people owned second homes compared to now? Is it the case that those with either the cash to spare, or the wherewith all to repay the necessary finance, would rather invest in a second home as an appreciating asset to enjoy rather than a boat as a depreciating asset?

Could it be that boat builders could be as innovative as you like with boat design, construction, propulsion etc but it's just not what people want anymore?

I can remember back in the 1970s when dad had boats friends would say one day, when the finances permitted, they'd get a boat. It's not something you hear much these days.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

We may not be atypical of any body or anything but our club has over 100 boats on our moorings.
Some boats are still in the possesion of their original owners,many bought new during the hey days of the 1980s.
We do not have a single new boat on the fleet or anything close.
The last member to buy new, went from large Pearl to a vast Sunseeker
Not exactly your average buyer.
What happened. ?

Easy to explain, they did what I did and promised the wife that it would be the last boat they bought:ambivalence:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Mike, therein lies the rub! The boat building industry spends very little money on R&D. I would guess that the majority of marine R&D spend goes on electronics. Garmin, Raymarine etc. A bit with the larger engine manufacturers as they have to improve emissions, and next to nothing on the hull.

Well I'm tempted to say that the industry will go to the wall then, at least at the sub superyacht level. Maybe the boat building industry will go back to what it was before the 1960s just building boats for the very rich who can afford the latest sustainable tech. I suspect what will happen though is that the production boat building industry goes the way of most mature industries in that just a few very large manufacturers survive who then have such a substantial market share that they can afford to spend the R & D on improving their products