Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Here we go again....
You cannot compare a boat builder with an automobile maker. Even if you compare as Mapis is doing one which spends considerable amount of money in R&D as Azimut.
Boat builders should be compared to a construction builder, one with a franchise always trying to find the new plot of land to develop.
The technology for boat builders to live and survive in the future will have to come from other sources like the producers of engines; Volvo, Man, Cat, MTU etc etc etc (what Rafiki says)

The industry is also slowing down because it is damn expensive to keep a boat of medium large sizes.
Prices have tripled for a berth and maintenance in the last 10-15 years, and unlike cars you cannot move away from the costs involved.
A car you can leave it in the garage remove the battery and it will cost you nothing. With boats it is not easy and the bigger they are the less you can do that.

The market has shrink from 2009 till 2013, with a shy growth happening in the last couple years. Considering the growth nos that the industry had from 1999 till 2008 a resetting was always going to come up.


Come on Mapis I would have not expected this from you considering your knowledge of the industry.

 

[rafiki_]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Well I'm tempted to say that the industry will go to the wall then, at least at the sub superyacht level. Maybe the boat building industry will go back to what it was before the 1960s just building boats for the very rich who can afford the latest sustainable tech. I suspect what will happen though is that the production boat building industry goes the way of most mature industries in that just a few very large manufacturers survive who then have such a substantial market share that they can afford to spend the R & D on improving their products

I'm not as pessimistic as you. Boats are still hugely desirable, and aspirational. However, the buying demographic is probably changing quite a lot. In the '90's, this was the hayday for Brits retiring early, decent lump sum, and a good final salary pension funded by those of us in work, mortgage paid off and hose value soaring. 30 to 40' boats were relatively affordable. Fuel was a few pence a gallon, and marina's were being built like golfcourses, more spaces than boats.
Today's new boat buyers are not retiring Brits, but are coming from the developing economies, with little boating heritage, but a growing affluent society. They want something different, and more interested in showroom appeal, crew, space and bling. Hence boats are growing. They are not interested in boating in the UK, but want the Med, US East Coast, and several more exotic locations. New marina's are being built to take the bigger boats. It was interesting watching the Grand Prix last weekend. There appeared to be 2 parts to the marina, one for boats 40m+, and the other for the tiddlers, 20 or 30m. Most of the boats appeared quite new, so the market is growing for this sector.
We may become dinosaurs here in the UK!

 

[BartW]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Well I'm tempted to say that the industry will go to the wall then, ....

I'm not sure Mike,

there are builders who develop new idea's, and new manufacturing techniques,
ao
AZ with their Magelano range.,
MCY for new buiding method and materials, ...
and there is SL with hybride propulsion
etc..
and afaik some of these are selling very well.

people who can afford the running cost of a (big) boat, prefer to buy new or fairly new,
this generates a huge amount of used boats on the market and puts a lot of pressure on the prices also for new,

just statistically the number of people who can afford it, is growing rapidly
there will alway's be a market for new boats,
so the fittest (financially) and most dynamic / clever build / nicest designs builder will win that battle

big innovation on propulsion has to be / will be developed by engine manufacturers, not by boat builders (or in coop)

all imho

 

[Uricanejack]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Its all Margret Thatcher's fault. There you go, good lounge topic.
Its basic economics. Back in the Bad old pree Maggie days. When I was just a nipper. Your average Joe. Got a bit more than inflation every pay raise. And inflation rose. So long as Joe's income rose more than inflation, Joe got just a wee bit better off each year.
If Joe was smart and bought a house. a few years latter Joe was laughing all the way to the bank. His income rose and his payments became a smaller proportion of his income.
And a fair few average Joes bought boats. with their disposable income to use in their new leisure time.
Well Maggies ideas caught on and spread far and wide.
Its been the other way round ever since. Average Joe's raise is less than inflation every year so Joes get a wee bit worse of every year and his mortgage is still a huge proportion of his income.
Joes declining income shinny new boats just aren't a priority. In todays user pay world, for the average Joe. Hence modest sise boat builders markets just disappeared.
But when times is tough. The gap between the top few and the average joe gets bigger. So as the rich get richer. The bigger higher priced boats are the ones being built for the few at the top of the food chain.
You look at the rise in Russian Owned mega boats. We are slowly but surly headed back to the days of the Aristocracy only its a new Aristocracy.

You see it in boats because no matter how you look at it pleasure boats are a luxury item.
Are older boats built better? most likely.
Its a tough market todays builders have to fight hard to keep costs down. So reduce labour, reduce material. has to be part of the formula for success. Electronics help. keep costs down . Part of the formula? Certainly. Simplify the interior? Less labour, less material Less cost.
Making fewer bigger boats you need to make more per boat. if you are going to make a profit you need more per boat.
Viscous circle.
A lot of well known names are gone. They just couldn't survive the new laws of the jungle.

As for new tech? depends what you mean.
Electronics and fuel economy is new tech. Reduced maintenance and reduced fuel. Might not be an issue if you don't do a lot of hours.
New tech, Electronics and navigation gives a lot more confidence to go further. Does it increase safety, what do the stats say?
It probably both increase risk because it increases confidence and increases safety depends on the situation. The RNLI haven't gone out of business yet.
Green tech. will we see a Tesla boat. why not? I am sure a tesla boat at my dock by the lake would be a good idea to some people. If you could pull a skier.
Or if you really want to be green get an electric solar powered sailboat.
Unfortunately it might not be very fast.

So now I have offended every one I will duck for cover.

PS I started out as a motor boater. On a the really nice family Silver from Roseneath.
It was way better built than modern boats. No longer in the family. but over 65 and still going.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I live in the SoF and the limiting factor to buying a boat is the berth. Some ports you can only rent and the waiting list is in the decades. Private port places sell for as much as a good second hand boat that will fit in it. And even the private places are on short leases. The environmental laws stop new marinas being built. Solve this problem and sales will boom (until all the new places are gone). But I can't help thinking that capitaineries think that larger boats are their future.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Have you seen the latest Boattest.com? The Swift Trawler range has sold 1,000 boats, demand is so high that they've asked Boattest.com not to review them because they can't keep up with any extra demand. Perhaps the problem is only with British yards

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I'm not sure Mike,

there are builders who develop new idea's, and new manufacturing techniques,

Well thats my point. There are builders investing in R & D with often successful outcomes but they are in a minority. Most carry on building the same type of boat that brought them success in the past seemingly blind to the fact that the future wont be the same as the past

just statistically the number of people who can afford it, is growing rapidly
there will alway's be a market for new boats,

Maybe you're right but the fact is that sales of new motor boats have dropped significantly since 2008 and have not really recovered

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Have you seen the latest Boattest.com? The Swift Trawler range has sold 1,000 boats, demand is so high that they've asked Boattest.com not to review them because they can't keep up with any extra demand. Perhaps the problem is only with British yards

Yes the Swift Trawler has been hugely successful because Beneteau spotted a growing niche in the market for boats that were cheaper to buy and cheaper to run but were still capable of serious cruising and they spent the money on developing a range of boats to fill that niche which is an example of what I'm talking about

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Here we go again....
You cannot compare a boat builder with an automobile maker.
[...]
Come on Mapis I would have not expected this from you considering your knowledge of the industry.

Well, thanks for the compliment... I guess!

But actually, it's not really a comparison that I was trying to make, if you re-read my post #51.
In fact, I called it an "analogy" with another industry, which happened to be automotive just incidentally. I could have used others.

Let me try to put the whole reasoning in a different perspective.
Forget any cross-comparison between automotive and boats - I never meant to make it, to start with, and I said that also in the past.
Just look at the two sectors vertically/independently.

Nowadays, if you are interested in a luxury sedan, you can choose between a brand new Tesla Model S and a used W140 S500, 20 years old and obviously much cheaper.
Btw, I said 30 years in my post #51, but that was obviously a mistake. Time does fly, but not that much...!
Now, not everybody will think that the former is worth the huge price difference with the latter - and there are many alternatives in between, of course.
BUT, and it's a HUGE but, have you ever tried a Tesla model S?
If not, trust me: saying that it's just generically "better" than the W140 is beyond a joke.
When I said that it redefines completely the driving experience, I did mean it!
And mind, I'm not a tree hugger by any stretch of imagination, but that thing makes you wonder how Ferrari, Porsche etc. are thinking to survive in the future - aside than because of their brand recognition, till it lasts. The Tesla performances in general (and the acceleration particularly) are THAT MUCH mind blowing.
If it weren't for its cost, I would have ordered one there and then, directly from its onboard monitor, before giving the driver's seat back to its owner.
But in this planet, there aren't only tightwads like myself: plenty of people can burn 150k Eur for a car - maybe even for their 4th or 5th one.

Now, back to boats. Let's assume that a luxurious 80 footer flybridge is what you are interested in.
Nowadays, the market offers you a brand new Delta 80 with triple IPS, or 20 years old and much more traditional boats like the Akhir 25, Canados 24, SL82, Alalunga 78, whatever... Pick your choice.
Mind, for the "new" comparison, I'm using the Delta just because she's one of the more innovative boats in this segment, but you could replace it with a new Azimut 80, Princess 82, and so forth - it doesn't really matter.
And as you know, even assuming that the 20yo boat is in spick and span conditions, you could buy her for one quarter of the Delta price, if not even less.
So, what would you end up with, in the modern vs. 20yo alternative?
With the former, a sleek, very light and minimalist boat, in theory capable of cruising at 30 knots and save a bit of fuel, when compared to shaft boats.
With the latter, a timeless, solid and extremely well built boat, with masterpiece interiors (whether Ikea fans like it or not) and hulls which in real world probably allows you to overtake the Delta, whenever the going gets just a bit rough.
Bottom line, as well as with cars, yes, there are folks around that can burn ridiculous amounts of money also for new boats.
Otoh, in the case of boats, the real question is, WHAT FOR?!?

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Its all Margret Thatcher's fault. There you go, good lounge topic.
[...]
So now I have offended every one I will duck for cover.

No need to duck for cover, as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't pretend to extrapolate a sociological analysis out of my thoughts, but yours is indeed an interesting one, and I for one agree with most of it. :encouragement:

 

[Nigelpickin]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Ive only just had the time to read this thread and it's interesting. 'Better' is so subjective but from my pov better needs to proceed:
Volume
Comfort
Reliability
Running cost
Customer service

To another customer Craftsmanship, Build quality, Custom options might take the lead in terms of Importance. I read the responses with interest.

You got away with the Tesla comment in post 51 though! Regardless of whether or not the drive/power train is ever going to be viable in terms of range, affordable to the point of becoming mass market or competitive versus the the tech that the germans and japanese are developing; time will tell. What is certain is that the build quality is appalling for a car in the £100k segment. The powers that be in Castle Bromwich, Leipzig, Modena or even Bowling Green for that matter have absolutely nothing to worry about...and really, how inovative is it to converge an ipad with a golf buggy? It'll be the likes of the 918 and i8 that move the game on. (Henry jump in here and help me please!)

I'm just spitballing here but I feel that in some ways at least 'innovation' is what is killing the marine leisure sector. The constant moving target of delivering the next big USP, (be that price, volume, hi/lo this, sideways that), has taken hold and created an unsustainable arms race for manufacturers. Far better for builders and consumers if a model has time to bed in, popularise, develop and create a financial return. I would go on to say that this atmosphere of brand one upmanship is born of consumer trade shows; just a terrible idea from a commercial point of view, full stop - but that's another thread if anyone can be bothered.

But better - WTF? I dunno, nostalgia is a heady drug...

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Bottom line, as well as with cars, yes, there are folks around that can burn ridiculous amounts of money also for new boats.
Otoh, in the case of boats, the real question is, WHAT FOR?!?

Hi, as you probably know I am biased, but anyway. I was talking to the captain of Delta 80 Nr1 recently, and this summer season they have put 14.000 NM behind them with an average cruising speed of 30 knots. The range at that speed is 400 NM+ and I can not see many, if any, other boats doing the same..?

 

[Nigelpickin]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Otoh, in the case of boats, the real question is, WHAT FOR?!?

You get what for really don't you?

There must have been times in your life when you bought a new suit when a trip to the thrift shop would have put you in something far less expensive and better made, if perhaps decade out of fashion and carrying the faint smell of a previous custodian....

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

You get what for really don't you?

There must have been times in your life when you bought a new suit when a trip to the thrift shop would have put you in something far less expensive and better made, if perhaps decade out of fashion and carrying the faint smell of a previous custodian....

Couldn't agree more. One excuse for new is not to inherit a problem that maybe the reason it's for sale. Another is a dealer can offer a complete package; take your old boat, find a place in a port offer a guarantee.
Good word smithing Nigel!

 

[oldgit]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

What is certain is that the build quality is appalling for a car in the £100k segment. The powers that be in Castle Bromwich, Leipzig, Modena or even Bowling Green for that matter have absolutely nothing to worry about...and really, how inovative is it to converge an ipad with a golf buggy?

Probably said by somebody clutching a bale of hay about the Model T as well........Giddy Up Dobbin.

Chum of mine, long term investor in Castle Bromwichware and "guardian " of all sorts of exotic road chariots recently test drove a Tesla........ very impressed indeed.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

You get what for really don't you?

There must have been times in your life when you bought a new suit when a trip to the thrift shop would have put you in something far less expensive and better made, if perhaps decade out of fashion and carrying the faint smell of a previous custodian....

What for? Above plus boat show glitter, owners who want new (most time its the Mrs or Ms), some owners who enjoy the building experience (we have a couple of those here, but to go on this an owner has ordered for example 4 Canados 86 all different specs to the previous).
Also in some sizes and with some yards (Canados is one of them) customization takes a whole new experience and people who like to spend enjoy this, and they also build a relationship with the yard.

Depreciation on boats has been very fast (the bigger the faster) in recent years (improving a bit in last year or two) whatever the name. The current price depreciation shows that builder can accommodate new boat buyers whenever they like, so if you want New, New Wins all the time.

So yes What For, but without glitter spending that there would be no used boats for other to buy and gamble on price.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

What for? Above plus boat show glitter, owners who want new (most time its the Mrs or Ms), some owners who enjoy the building experience (we have a couple of those here, but to go on this an owner has ordered for example 4 Canados 86 all different specs to the previous).
Also in some sizes and with some yards (Canados is one of them) customization takes a whole new experience and people who like to spend enjoy this, and they also build a relationship with the yard.

Depreciation on boats has been very fast (the bigger the faster) in recent years (improving a bit in last year or two) whatever the name. The current price depreciation shows that builder can accommodate new boat buyers whenever they like, so if you want New, New Wins all the time.

So yes What For, but without glitter spending that there would be no used boats for other to buy and gamble on price.

The Swift Trawlers with a 1,000 boats on the water still has healthy second hand values

 

[Nigelpickin]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Probably said by somebody clutching a bale of hay about the Model T as well........Giddy Up Dobbin.

Chum of mine, long term investor in Castle Bromwichware and "guardian " of all sorts of exotic road chariots recently test drove a Tesla........ very impressed indeed.

Did he buy one?

It was very clever of Elon Tusk to convince people to part with 100k to become beta testers
Not so clever to lose nearly a billion dollars.

Would have been great had boats been his obsession though, just imagine what innovations would now be hitting the pontoons

 

[rafiki_]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Tesla is heavily subsidized by Fed and State Governments, plus the credits they sell to gas guzzlers. Tesla is far from a viable business at the moment. The cars are a really good effort, but cost more to get to market than their ticket price. Residuals are going to be very interesting to watch when the cars are over 5 years old.

 

[benjenbav]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

There's an underlying theme of why on earth should anyone buy a hugely expensive luxury item: a boat. Many won't because they can't. For those that can, will the future hold a range of competing choices which drive them away?

I recently chanced upon this thread which captures better than I can the sheer joy of, well, to put no finer point on it, spunking a huge wad of cash on something that is unashamedly unnecessary:

You could say that, stepping back to 2002 proves MapisM's original point. Or not. Anyway, it's a great read:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?7444-Leopard-roars-on-maiden-voyage&highlight=leopard