Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[oldgit]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Did he buy one?

dunno.....he is down in his boat in Majorka at the moment

"Not so clever to lose nearly a billion dollars."
.....but daft enuff to make 11.5 billion
They are investing considerable amounts to develop battery technology.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

You could say that, stepping back to 2002 proves MapisM's original point. Or not. Anyway, it's a great read:

About the only thing that proves is that there was only one tcm Sadly now taken by the dark side

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

There's an underlying theme of why on earth should anyone buy a hugely expensive luxury item: a boat. Many won't because they can't. For those that can, will the future hold a range of competing choices which drive them away?

I recently chanced upon this thread which captures better than I can the sheer joy of, well, to put no finer point on it, spunking a huge wad of cash on something that is unashamedly unnecessary:

You could say that, stepping back to 2002 proves MapisM's original point. Or not. Anyway, it's a great read:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?7444-Leopard-roars-on-maiden-voyage&highlight=leopard

That was from back in the days when writing on a forum was an art form.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

The Swift Trawlers with a 1,000 boats on the water still has healthy second hand values

The Swift are at the lower end of the trawler market. Obviously they depreciate less in nos but same in % terms.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

The Swift are at the lower end of the trawler market. Obviously they depreciate less in nos but same in % terms.

If we divide the market into two many segments, size, shape, power, propulsion, build material etc then we will never be able to determine where the industry is heading or come from. It's a powerboat, only not as we know it, its successful

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

If we divide the market into two many segments, size, shape, power, propulsion, build material etc then we will never be able to determine where the industry is heading or come from. It's a powerboat, only not as we know it, its successful

You have to compare apples with apples. The market is a mixed pudding at the moment, very difficult to say where it is heading.
Your classic flybridge yachts (50 feet to 70 feet) boat sales are stable, same for hard top boats sub 60 feet.
Above this szie sport yachts (60 feet or over) are struggling for the exception of Pershing.
The most stable and best sellers of the moment are IPS boats in all areas.
Again small super yachts in the 80 to 120 feet bracket are stable with custom builders taking a hit in recent years of more production orientated builders as Princess, Sunseeker, Monte Carlo Yachts by Beneteau Group.

Then some builders find market everywhere due to the competitive pricing, as is the Beneteau Group that is why it is not just the concept of the Swift which works for them.
Beneteau Swift is selling like hot cakes, while Grand Banks is in big trouble in the last year or so. Same concept of boats but different pricing.

All in all the explorer yacht market is growing about half a percent to one percent a year in the last decade. Its share as at 2015 was less then 10% of the market.
When you consider the entries we had from some important boat builders in this segment (Azimut / Absolute etc) it is really them pushing the growth, then the market on its own.
To give you a perspective the hard top open yacht (13 to 22 meter) a decade ago was having double digits share growth from 2002 till 2013. That is why everybody jumped into the bandwagon of building one.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

You have to compare apples with apples. The market is a mixed pudding at the moment, very difficult to say where it is heading.
Your classic flybridge yachts (50 feet to 70 feet) boat sales are stable, same for hard top boats sub 60 feet.
Above this szie sport yachts (60 feet or over) are struggling for the exception of Pershing.
The most stable and best sellers of the moment are IPS boats in all areas.
Again small super yachts in the 80 to 120 feet bracket are stable with custom builders taking a hit in recent years of more production orientated builders as Princess, Sunseeker, Monte Carlo Yachts by Beneteau Group.

Then some builders find market everywhere due to the competitive pricing, as is the Beneteau Group that is why it is not just the concept of the Swift which works for them.
Beneteau Swift is selling like hot cakes, while Grand Banks is in big trouble in the last year or so. Same concept of boats but different pricing.

All in all the explorer yacht market is growing about half a percent to one percent a year in the last decade. Its share as at 2015 was less then 10% of the market.
When you consider the entries we had from some important boat builders in this segment (Azimut / Absolute etc) it is really them pushing the growth, then the market on its own.
To give you a perspective the hard top open yacht (13 to 22 meter) a decade ago was having double digits share growth from 2002 till 2013. That is why everybody jumped into the bandwagon of building one.

You are a fast typist

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

But better - WTF? I dunno, nostalgia is a heady drug...

Weird comment, after you disagreed with my views based on the Tesla driving experience...

Btw, when I said that it can give Porsches (plus Ferraris etc.) a run for their money, I meant PROPER Porsches.
For the commercial stuff they build in Leipzig, a 500 Abarth is more than enough!
Here, NOW you can ask Henry to jump and help you...

You get what for really don't you?

There must have been times in your life when you bought a new suit when a trip to the thrift shop would have put you in something far less expensive and better made, if perhaps decade out of fashion and carrying the faint smell of a previous custodian....

OK, this is something I can agree with, by and large.
I mean, leaving aside the fact that the suit comparison is stretched to say the least, I definitely can see why folks like jfm are willing to go for a new build in order to have a fully customised boat from the ground up - in fact, it's no coincidence that this is the way ALL superyachts are built.

BUT!
Let's consider my previous example of a luxurious 80 footer flybridge, and let's assume that we have 5M Eur burning a hole in our pockets.
We can either get a brand new boat, customised to some extent (though not truly full custom, anyway), of spend half a M to buy a 20yo Akhir 25 in mint conditions, with enough residual life left in her main onboard equipment to last for the rest of our life, and putting another half a M on top to refit her as we please - getting rid completely of the "faint smell of a previous custodian", in the process.
And with the latter, what you eventually would get is something which, in many more ways than one, is better built than any modern stuff.
Btw, if you think I'm writing this because of the "nostalgia drug" effect, you must have never been onboard a well maintained 20yo Akhir 25 (or Canados 24, SL82, and so forth).
Oh, and of course, you would still have a 4M change left for relief goods like booze, prostitutes, whatever.

Mind, I still agree that some folks would prefer to go for the "new" rather than the "old" regardless, also because these days, aside from very experienced and technically minded boaters like jfm, there are also newcomers to pleasure boating who can buy an 80' as their first toy, just to give the experience a try.
And we can't blame someone who knows bugger all about boats for assuming that something costing 5M is bound to be better than its alternative costing 1M - though O.Wilde would call them cynics, I reckon...

Otoh, I hope you will also understand why I don't think you really gave a definitive answer to my "what for?" question...

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Hi, as you probably know I am biased, but anyway. I was talking to the captain of Delta 80 Nr1 recently, and this summer season they have put 14.000 NM behind them with an average cruising speed of 30 knots. The range at that speed is 400 NM+ and I can not see many, if any, other boats doing the same..?

Mmm.... 14k NM in one summer averaging 30kts... Almost 500 hours cruising while hanging somewhere at all time, just to move around the boat...
Is that supposed to be pleasure boating? Sounds more like drug smuggling, to me!

Jokes aside, I'm not sure that targeting these clients is a sound strategy for any builder.
Let's say that there's a dozen of folks in this planet wishing to use a boat that way - and I'm probably exaggerating a bit: what next?
Not to mention that some of these few folks could choose an OTAM 80 instead (I for one would, without hesitating one second!), which has a 450NM range at 50, rather than 30 kts.

Besides, look at the pic below.
Italcraft designed that thing in the early 80s (and before you say that Deltas are nicer, yes, EIGHTIES, not a typo!). She could reach 60kts, cruising at 45 all day long.
A couple of folks I met who had the privilege to test her at sea, also in challenging conditions, swear that her seakeeping was absolutely outstanding.
But she didn't exactly sell as hot cakes. In fact, we all know how Italcraft ended, sadly - after having been one of the most innovative boatbuilders ever, if not THE most innovative.

Last but not least, IMHO for those who really have the bug of cumulating mileage at sea, a 400NM range isn't anywhere near decent.
In fact, it's no coincidence that according to the Global Order Book publication, another niche builder like Circa Marine (of Dashew fame) has more hulls on order for the FPB 78 than Delta has for the 80...
...And that's a boat which barely cruises at 10 kts. But for almost 8 THOUSANDS, rather than 4 hundreds NM!

 

[jfm]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I can not see many, if any, other boats doing the same..?

The reason other boats around 80 feet don't do this is that the owners don't want to. It is nothing to do with the ability of the boat, and everything to do with the boredom of 500hours underway at speed. For the very small number of owners who choose to endure/enjoy this, then great, and a D80 would be one of the finest boats you could do this in. If I wanted to do 14000nm in the Med in one season, I think D80 would be my number one choice of boat, in fact. Indeed, perhaps the defining feature of D80 is that it is an awesome boat underway but rather compromised at rest (though you could fix that Designo, with some design tweaks I'm still in the virtual queue please to buy the D80-Evo version, with the new extended flybridge with HT )

EDIT - I see MapisM has already written much of the same as regards 14000nm underway

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

So yes What For, but without glitter spending that there would be no used boats for other to buy and gamble on price.

Yup, that's a good point, W.
Otoh, the demand is still lower than the offer also for used boats atm, and God only knows if and when that will change...

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Weird comment, after you disagreed with my views based on the Tesla driving experience...

Btw, when I said that it can give Porsches (plus Ferraris etc.) a run for their money, I meant PROPER Porsches.
For the commercial stuff they build in Leipzig, a 500 Abarth is more than enough!
Here, NOW you can ask Henry to jump and help you...


OK, this is something I can agree with, by and large.
I mean, leaving aside the fact that the suit comparison is stretched to say the least, I definitely can see why folks like jfm are willing to go for a new build in order to have a fully customised boat from the ground up - in fact, it's no coincidence that this is the way ALL superyachts are built.

BUT!
Let's consider my previous example of a luxurious 80 footer flybridge, and let's assume that we have 5M Eur burning a hole in our pockets.
We can either get a brand new boat, customised to some extent (though not truly full custom, anyway), of spend half a M to buy a 20yo Akhir 25 in mint conditions, with enough residual life left in her main onboard equipment to last for the rest of our life, and putting another half a M on top to refit her as we please - getting rid completely of the "faint smell of a previous custodian", in the process.
And with the latter, what you eventually would get is something which, in many more ways than one, is better built than any modern stuff.
Btw, if you think I'm writing this because of the "nostalgia drug" effect, you must have never been onboard a well maintained 20yo Akhir 25 (or Canados 24, SL82, and so forth).
Oh, and of course, you would still have a 4M change left for relief goods like booze, prostitutes, whatever.

Mind, I still agree that some folks would prefer to go for the "new" rather than the "old" regardless, also because these days, aside from very experienced and technically minded boaters like jfm, there are also newcomers to pleasure boating who can buy an 80' as their first toy, just to give the experience a try.
And we can't blame someone who knows bugger all about boats for assuming that something costing 5M is bound to be better than its alternative costing 1M - though O.Wilde would call them cynics, I reckon...

Otoh, I hope you will also understand why I don't think you really gave a definitive answer to my "what for?" question...

I would think that most people who buy a large boat probably started with small boats even if they buy new

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

The reason other boats around 80 feet don't do this is that the owners don't want to. It is nothing to do with the ability of the boat, and everything to do with the boredom of 500hours underway at speed.

ROTFL, and I guess you didn't read my reply to Designo before writing yours! :encouragement:

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

As for Tesla, without having driven one, there is no way a combustion engine can compete with the torque and instant power of an electric motor, but there is no way a battery bank can compete with a fuel tank.

 

[jfm]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

There's an underlying theme of why on earth should anyone buy a hugely expensive luxury item: a boat. Many won't because they can't. For those that can, will the future hold a range of competing choices which drive them away?

I recently chanced upon this thread which captures better than I can the sheer joy of, well, to put no finer point on it, spunking a huge wad of cash on something that is unashamedly unnecessary:

You could say that, stepping back to 2002 proves MapisM's original point. Or not. Anyway, it's a great read:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?7444-Leopard-roars-on-maiden-voyage&highlight=leopard

Haha thanks BJB for finding that and posting the link. TCM was indeed like a kid in that new boat - he loved it. I have some pictures of that first cruise, and coliholic falling in, on a PC at home. I'll post them when I get a spare minute

 

[jfm]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

ROTFL, and I guess you didn't read my reply to Designo before writing yours! :encouragement:

Not at all:encouragement:. We were both typing the same thing at the same time!:encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I would think that most people who buy a large boat probably started with small boats even if they buy new

So what? If you mean/imply that you are one of those who would rather spend 5 than 1 million, fair enough, who am I to argue?

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Haha thanks BJB for finding that and posting the link. TCM was indeed like a kid in that new boat - he loved it. I have some pictures of that first cruise, and coliholic falling in, on a PC at home. I'll post them when I get a spare minute

Absolutely +1 on thanking BJB for the link - even more so because for some reason I missed that thread, back then.
Thanks in advance for posting any pics you will find! :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

As for Tesla, without having driven one, there is no way a combustion engine can compete with the torque and instant power of an electric motor, but there is no way a battery bank can compete with a fuel tank.

Agreed! Just add "yet" at the end of your statement, and it would be a perfect summary. :encouragement:

 

[jfm]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Just add "yet" at the end of your statement,

Indeed. Graphene technology, for example. There is no physical reason why electrical charge potential cannot be stored in the same kwh/kg ratio as fossil fuel. Man has just not discovered how, yet, but is on the case.