Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[Nigelpickin]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

M, I'm not disagreeing with you about any of your comments, (other than the Tesla nonsense),

I jumped into a Tesla recently, I can testify that the experience is astonishing the first time you feel that torque and your head hits the cheap leather. It's also fair to say that getting back into my XKR, (now and ex XKR but that's another story), wasn't a chore and that my current shortlist doesn't include the model S when I change cars next year.

FWIW I have a Mini JCW and an Abarth 595c in my modest collection, (a fool and his money...). The German car is built better, handles better and beats the 595 in every way but somehow the retro, scorpion emblazoned pocket rocket has managed to do around three times more milage while JCW gathers dust...that's partly driven by my predisposition for the nostalgic charm of its design, and indeed character. But I digress.

Like I say, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just joining in. I do think that nostalgia plays a part in your premise that things used to be built better but that's not to say that I don't get or agree with your point of view in part.
So let's assume, generally speaking, anyone smart enough to have earned the money to buy a new boat is smart enough to weigh up the pros and cons new versus used - modern versus classic; why indeed would any of us buy a new boat? (That's rhetorical). I'm not new to boating, been boating all my life and buying boats for the last 20 years; all I can say is what I know to be true for me.

Aspiration, avarice, vanity, volume, part exchange, cost to change, factory visits, canopes and champagne could all be sited as factors, reasons if you like that the last three boats we've bought have been new.

It's also true to say that I haven't wanted a project boat to date, that might change as we become more time rich but I'm not a practical man.

All that aside and back to my point about the thrift shop suit; some of us just like buying new, some prefer to renovate and recycle; I'm sure my views will change as I get older, nostalgia will do that to a man

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

So let's assume, generally speaking, anyone smart enough to have earned the money to buy a new boat is smart enough to weigh up the pros and cons new versus used - modern versus classic; why indeed would any of us buy a new boat? (That's rhetorical).

I don't mind rhetorical questions as long as they make sense, and yours does.
Surely the simple answer is to a large extent "each to their own", and if the point I was trying to make came across as a suggestion that buyers of new boats are silly and buyers of used boats are wise, I apologise. That would be a sweeping generalization, and as such wrong by definition. And it wasn't my intention, anyway.

If I should try to summarise my feeling, in a nutshell I could say the following:
When comparing a modern product with its 20yo equivalent, I see a lot of good reasons to prefer the former to the latter (and very few, if any, to prefer the opposite) in many cases: cars, vacuum cleaners, bycicles... You name it. Not to mention things like TVs, PCs, etc., of course.
With pleasure boats, I'm not saying that there are zero good reasons to prefer "new", but IMHO there are much less than with many other industrial products, and there are several reasons to actually prefer "old" - particularly when including the price/performance into the equation, but also leaving that aside.

That's all I meant, really.
Otoh, if you think that the difference between a Dyson vacuum cleaner and its 20yo equivalent is proportionally comparable to the difference between a modern boat and its 20yo equivalent, well, we can always agree to disagree, I suppose...

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Not to mention that some of these few folks could choose an OTAM 80 instead (I for one would, without hesitating one second!), which has a 450NM range at 50, rather than 30 kts.

Dashew 78,
...And that's a boat which barely cruises at 10 kts. But for almost 8 THOUSANDS, rather than 4 hundreds NM!

I think you are far from reaching 450 NM at 50 knots with the Italcraft, maybe 150 NM... And the Delta 80 and the Dashew have about the same consumption per NM at 10 knots, but the Dashew can take 3 to 4 times as much fuel.

But my post was about what you can do with a modern boat. Some people like to reach a distant port fast, at the same time using nearly half as much fuel as comparable boats. And BTW, I think the living space of the Delta 80 is at least 50 % larger than both the Italcraft and the Dashew...

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

The reason other boats around 80 feet don't do this is that the owners don't want to. It is nothing to do with the ability of the boat, and everything to do with the boredom of 500hours underway at speed.

Yes, you can always put it like that, or you can say that with 10 knots cruising speed it would have taken 1.500 hours...

BTW, I got my own little 80 today;

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

I think you are far from reaching 450 NM at 50 knots with the Italcraft, maybe 150 NM... And the Delta 80 and the Dashew have about the same consumption per NM at 10 knots, but the Dashew can take 3 to 4 times as much fuel.

Hang on a minute, the Italcraft is a 30 years old boat with 30yo engines, and not designed for range at all.
I actually have no clue of what her range was, but pretty sure much less than 400NM, of course.

Otoh, back to modern boats, try to beat the OTAM 80 speed and range with a D80, if you can!

Ref. the fuel burn per NM at 10kts, I have no clue of the respective numbers, but sorry, I can't believe that the D80 can be anywhere near a FPB 78.
I'm well aware that also fast boats can be very efficient at D speed, but a D80 vs. a FPB 78? No way.

PS: I previously mentioned the OTAM 80 numbers by heart, but just in case in you were actually talking of her rather than the old Italcraft Aeromarina in your previous post, you can check out this webpage I just googled for.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Indeed. Graphene technology, for example. There is no physical reason why electrical charge potential cannot be stored in the same kwh/kg ratio as fossil fuel. Man has just not discovered how, yet, but is on the case.

The future is hard to predict and some of us may not live to see it. But here is one prediction, the day all of us have battery powered boats is the day the cost of shore power will go up

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Otoh, back to modern boats, try to beat the OTAM 80 speed and range with a D80, if you can!

Ref. the fuel burn per NM at 10kts, I have no clue of the respective numbers, but sorry, I can't believe that the D80 can be anywhere near a FPB 78.
I'm well aware that also fast boats can be very efficient at D speed, but a D80 vs. a FPB 78? No way.

About the Otam 80, you are right, it is hard to beat a smaller boat with three times more power. But if you compare the consumption at 30 knots, the Delta 80 comes about 3 times longer on the same amount of fuel...

At 7.5 knots the Delta 80 is using 16 LPH and at 11 knots 47 LPH, I can not find the exact figures for Dashew 78, but it is not a big difference. But again, you are comparing three very different boats, built for different speed and range requirements.

 

[WhiskeyTownRacer]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

About the Otam 80, you are right, it is hard to beat a smaller boat with three times more power. But if you compare the consumption at 30 knots, the Delta 80 comes about 3 times longer on the same amount of fuel...

At 7.5 knots the Delta 80 is using 16 LPH and at 11 knots 47 LPH, I can not find the exact figures for Dashew 78, but it is not a big difference. But again, you are comparing three very different boats, built for different speed and range requirements.

Comparing an FPB78 to a Delta 80 is an odd thing to do in many respects. My initial reaction to the statement that @10 knots the difference would not be 'big' was that the gap would actually be very significant, a little digging later:

An early sea trial on FPB78 showed 10.5 knots with a consumption of approx. 6.5 GPH (US I believe) so 24.5 LPH. Extrapolating your figures of 16@7.5/47@11 would suggest the gap is indeed rather large*.

It has to be said the Delta80 appears to be very efficient compared to her peers, which is by far the more important comparison.

*Edit: with a caveat of unknown variables of loading and sea states in both cases.

 

[Bouba]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

So what? If you mean/imply that you are one of those who would rather spend 5 than 1 million, fair enough, who am I to argue?

If you are referring to me then you need to knock off a few zeros
There is actually two separate conversations here. For the capital that I put into my new small boat I could have bought a huge 2nd/3rd/4th hand boat. But to feed water and stable such an enormous beast I would need a very high income. A person can have a lot of capital (e.g. They sold a house) but a low income (e.g. I'm retired)
There is the argument that I could have bought the same kind of boat 2nd hand and saved capital. But you then know you will have to pay for work to be done(unless you are lucky). And here in France work is expensive, very. As we are not locals we can't tap into the black economy so we pay full wack for everything. Now I just call Benneteau and its sorted (after a long wait:sleeping and for the engine, well it's a Cummins so it will never go wrong. And after the guarantees run out, if I'm careful I can catch many problems before they become expensive. I could, of course, do any work myself but I would have lost any savings on frequent trips to London to see my osteopath. Also they took my old boat (which I bought from them also new) for a very good price (I know this is factored in). This saved me from using my very poor broken French to convince somebody to buy it while I'm paying for it to be stored while getting low balled and locking up my capital for a year or more.

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

About the Otam 80, you are right, it is hard to beat a smaller boat with three times more power.
But if you compare the consumption at 30 knots, the Delta 80 comes about 3 times longer on the same amount of fuel...

Well, I suppose we'll soon hear about the D80 crushing all the records Bohinc established with the FB designed OTAM 80 #1, then.
Round Italy, Monaco-London, Round Britain... Sounds like a challenge for that 14k NM captain! :encouragement:

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Well, I suppose we'll soon hear about the D80 crushing all the records Bohinc established with the FB designed OTAM 80 #1, then.
Round Italy, Monaco-London, Round Britain... Sounds like a challenge for that 14k NM captain! :encouragement:

You will not hear about this I am afraid, we have not been into boat racing since the 60:s and 70:s when we built smaller boats like the Delta 25 designed by Sonny Levi...

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

You will not hear about this I am afraid, we have not been into boat racing since the 60:s and 70:s when we built smaller boats like the Delta 25 designed by Sonny Levi...

Now, that's interesting to hear indeed.
I had half memory to have read on the Levi fans website (altomareblu.com, though I'm afraid it's only in Italian), which among other things established an historical register of Levi boats, that some UK builder had cloned one of the Delta hulls, creating a mould out of it and calling the boat "Levi 25" without any permission, hence being actually sued by Levi himself.

Now, I just re-checked that website, and what they actually mention in this page is referred to "Sagitta", a Delta 25 boat inspired to the Delta 28 and designed by Levi for Sapri, a small boatbuilder located near Naples.
And (hear, hear) according to them, it was actually a non better specified "Scandinavian builder" which made that clone without any permission.
Not only that, but allegedly this builder sold afterwards the mould to a UK builder, who continued to produce boats called "Levi 25" usurping not only the design, but also the name!

When you said "we built smaller boats like the Delta 25", what do you mean exactly?
Maybe you can give us your version of the above story...

 

[Designo]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

It was my founding partner who was building Delta boats in the 60:s, 17' Daycruisers and sportboats for racing, we were all into offshore racing in those days and so was Levi. I don´t know how the Delta 25 came into production, but I am pretty sure it was in cooperation with Levi since I have never heard any questionmarks around it. It looked exactly like the one on this picture, with wooden window frames. Some are still around here....

EDIT; Found a copy of a flyer on the net, doesn't say who designed it...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Now, that's interesting to hear indeed.
I had half memory to have read on the Levi fans website (altomareblu.com, though I'm afraid it's only in Italian), which among other things established an historical register of Levi boats, that some UK builder had cloned one of the Delta hulls, creating a mould out of it and calling the boat "Levi 25" without any permission, hence being actually sued by Levi himself.

Now, I just re-checked that website, and what they actually mention in this page is referred to "Sagitta", a Delta 25 boat inspired to the Delta 28 and designed by Levi for Sapri, a small boatbuilder located near Naples.
And (hear, hear) according to them, it was actually a non better specified "Scandinavian builder" which made that clone without any permission.
Not only that, but allegedly this builder sold afterwards the mould to a UK builder, who continued to produce boats called "Levi 25" usurping not only the design, but also the name!

When you said "we built smaller boats like the Delta 25", what do you mean exactly?
Maybe you can give us your version of the above story...

When there is smoke there is usually a fire. But boat design and this has been going for so long.

Some big names have copied the evolution of the Deep Vee and actually in Europe are considered the original of this type of hull.
See for example the evolution Ray Hunt for Bertram original deep Vee - its second faster of evolution of Jim Wynn with less spray rails used on Magnum in mid 60s - then in the seventies we arrive at David Napier and his modified deep Vee closing at eighteen degrees aft.
Fast forward to the mid eighties and you can see a near identical clones to the David Napier hull (minus a couple differences) Bernard Olesinski (considered god among humans by British boat owners).
Now I knew the numbers of the hulls where pretty similar but once in Lavagna I just happened to have a Bertram 54 (launched early eighties) and Princess 56 (mid ninties) next to each other, take away the spray rails and the prop tunnels and damn did those hulls look similar.

 

[scubaman]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

It was my founding partner who was building Delta boats in the 60:s, 17' Daycruisers and sportboats for racing, we were all into offshore racing in those days and so was Levi. I don´t know how the Delta 25 came into production, but I am pretty sure it was in cooperation with Levi since I have never heard any questionmarks around it. It looked exactly like the one on this picture, with wooden window frames. Some are still around here....

EDIT; Found a copy of a flyer on the net, doesn't say who designed it...

View attachment 61554View attachment 61562

The name on the bottom is a pretty strong hint

The flyer says that the boat was also sold as a bare hull for DIY'ers.

Further info on Isacson here -> http://www.flipperbat.se/fed505d1-c15e-4b55-b5c0-978a727fbc9b-29.html

The text goes on to explain that in 1965 he drew the first drafts of his first own motor boat which would become the Delta daycruiser (the 25 if I'm not mistaken?).

Also the Flippers he designed have been very popular here. Not sure but I gather that the Flying Flipper is based on the same hull?

 

[gordmac]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Rather different to the large boats talked about on this thread but it is interesting that you can buy a new Levi Corsair, basically the same as the 1960s design with some modernisation. Would that give you the best of both old and modern worlds?

 

[MapisM]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

once in Lavagna I just happened to have a Bertram 54 (launched early eighties) and Princess 56 (mid ninties) next to each other, take away the spray rails and the prop tunnels and damn did those hulls look similar.

I'm very surprised to hear that, W.
If nothing else, wasn't the Bertram hull significantly beamier than the Princess, even if a tad shorter?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: A small update, 7 months later....

Bertram 54 was designed in early eighties. But here I am speaking for similarity of shape more then dimensions. Flowing of the lines etc.

None the less the Bertram 54 had a beam of 5.16 meters against the 4.6 meter of the Princess 56.
I do not think BO did not copy paste Napiers work but I think he was very much inspired by his work.

 

[MapisM]

Aha, understood.
Btw, in hindsight, just to avoid a possible misunderstanding, I wasn't disagreeing with your point ref the habit of copying hulls, in this industry.
In the backyard of a restaurant in Lake Como there is an old Cigarette 36 bare hull used as a garden decoration.
According to some local boaters, it was bought by Abbate in the good old days, and used to build a mould, cut and paste style! :nonchalance:
Though at least Abbate never used the Don Aronow (or Cigarette, whatever) name for his boats...