Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[MapisM]

the good quality found in older boats is because the boat was built well not because it is old.

Ermm... That's PRECISELY my point!
Sorry if the title came across as just "old=better". I'm a bit of a luddite at times, but not that much!
Will follow up asap on your last Q in more details, they are closing the doors of my flight as I'm typing...

 

[Cheery]

Are mainstream modern boats not just reflecting fashion for minimalist designs in everyday life? There is also a point of the design fitting the boat style. A SS 86 would look a bit daft fitted out like gentleman's classic yacht and vice versa. Some older boats look cramped in comparison to new designs and the (IKEA ) interior fit out has something to do with helping in that department. Look how much room is saved for something as simple as a TV. That said, on the recent Sunseeker programme the large TV on Black Legend didn't look like it would stand up to too much more in a heavy sea.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

MM, I'd be interested in what you think very specifically is good quality in older boats. New engines are surely better. Bonded windows are surely better than framed ones (?). A new oven/dishwasher/airco unit/MFD is better than an old one. I don't agree that old grp/resin is better and have never seen evidence that good grp old hulls are better than good grp new hulls. So is it just the furniture that you find better?

Sure you have a point, tech have improved a lot in the last years, resin, system, engines etc etc We also have all kind of stabilizers aimed to stabilize these always growing in height motor yachts.
Though I am not sure how many of the so called premium marketed brands actually use high end epoxy and carbon / kevlar combinations.

But I think MM is more speaking on the regard how the concept of the boat project is done nowadays, and for that regard I agree with him.

A decade ago (if not more) most boat builders would have started with a good hull, and then go on with the project of putting in the accommodation.
Today most builders start with a big full beam midships stateroom, and then lets see how we make the rest work.

Sure the second sells more and all have my sympathy for going this route.

Now this is not to say new boats are crap and so on, but if you are into technical stuff more then a floating condo it is more easy to find love at first sight with the older stuff then most of the newer stuff.

 

[jfm]

I agree some of that PYB. The "midships stateroom" point affects the 50 foot (approx.) size category only though

I think that among many bigger boats the bows have been made blunter to get more interior accom, but not on all boats. Blunt bows are good for some purposes, but not others. So you can fix that problem by choosing a boat with the hull you want, not necessarily by choosing an older boat

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

@MapisM -have you seen @recent shows new Ferretti products like Riva and Itama and Pershing - still build like brick outhouses oozing quality fittings and details , but only Bulid /sell a few these days compared to the 90,s and early noughties .But i think they still cut it quality build wise -that's a Ferretti thing -just .

Having had 3 secondhand Ferrettis over a period of 11 yrs, I have seen at first hand how Ferretti and I suspect other boat builders have cut back on build quality over the years. As you say, the hulls still seem to be built to the same standard and the critical structural items like engine bearers, mooring cleats, winches, portholes etc all seem to be of similar standard and mounted properly and neither has the quality of the key equipment like engines, pumps, gennies, aircon etc been downgraded. However there are 2 areas where build quality has definitely been downgraded. The amount and quality of interior woodwork inside has been reduced with less woodwork overall and more use of veneered wood rather than solid wood. The builders will tell you that this is the new minimalist look that buyers want but in reality its a cost saving exercise. The second area is in behind the scenes quality. Cupboards are now fabric lined rather wood lined, hidden areas of GRP are not painted and tanks are now plastic rather than stainless steel or grp. Personally I think that this kind of petty cost saving is a mistake because it sends a message to the buyer that suggests that if the builder has cut back quality in these areas, in what other areas has the builder cut back on quality that the buyer can't see

So yup, going back to the OP's initial post, I agree that certainly with regard to Ferretti that a late 90s one was built better than a late noughties one

 

[jfm]

Hmm, Deleted User, on a couple of specifics veneered furniture isn't inferior to solid wood (commission a David Linley desk and it will be veneered mdf, and all the better for it) and rotomoulded plastic small tanks are surely better than GRP or s/steel. IMHO at least!

 

[Portofino]

I think the answer or the most part of it lies in looking at three things to compare 90,s and early noughties-to what we have today @ boat shows .
, 1- the weight /Lengh ratio
2- hull profile specifically the dead rise at the stern .
3- the Cof G

Things like a modern dishwasher , veneers or not? bonded windows, common rail diesel , although up to date and possibly consumer lead -do not make the boat "better " .Agree helps sales and beats down the competitors @ boat show .

1- indicates build needs --- - weight is good (assuming the engines are suitable matched ie not IPS )
2- see keeping ----- is it more of a boat or floating apartment ?
3 where actually are these engine (s) ---- Oh dear a massive beamy mid cabin =generated the sale

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hmm, Deleted User, on a couple of specifics veneered furniture isn't inferior to solid wood (commission a David Linley desk and it will be veneered mdf, and all the better for it) and rotomoulded plastic small tanks are surely better than GRP or s/steel. IMHO at least!

You can get a veneered MDF desk at IKEA too and your wallet will be all the better for it We're going to have to agree to disagree on veneers then because for me the knowledge that you've got a solid lump of wood outweighs any styling consideration. But that's not my main beef with veneered wood. The main problem is that if you damage a veneered wood surface it is impossible to repair properly without replacing the panel whereas a skilled carpenter can sand and revarnish a solid wood repair. My second issue is the way that some builders use veneered wood panels on boats these days, in particular the way they often butt 2 veneered panels against each other making a sharp and potentially dangerous edge which eventually will look tatty because the veneer will chip easily

I'll take your word for rotomoulded plastic tanks. I just think B & Q garden water butt when I look at the plastic tanks in my bilges

 

[MapisM]

Sorry folks, you might think that I'm running away after throwing a hand grenade, but these days I can only have a few quick glimpses at the forum, and it takes a while to rationalize and write a proper reply about what "very specifically", as jfm asked, I found better built in 20yo boats.
Also because nope, it isn't just the furniture - there are also other areas worth considering.
Anyway, I won't forget that I owe you all a proper answer...

Meanwhile, a quick one to Hardmy question, which I missed when I wrote my previous post:
Yep, Uniesse definitely deserves a place among quality boatbuilders imho - the 55 being one of my favorites (I did mention it in another thread, as I recall).
Unfortunately, the very few which are for sale were too neglected for my tastes, otherwise I would have already started a "New to me Uniesse" thread...

 

[jfm]

No worries on replies MM, I quite understand that there can be more important things than the asylum, sometimes!

 

[MapisM]

MM, I'd be interested in what you think very specifically is good quality in older boats. New engines are surely better. Bonded windows are surely better than framed ones (?). A new oven/dishwasher/airco unit/MFD is better than an old one. I don't agree that old grp/resin is better and have never seen evidence that good grp old hulls are better than good grp new hulls. So is it just the furniture that you find better?

Ok, back to your question, eventually - with apologies for the delay, but after Deleted User posted his "only 2 years late" thread, I hope I'll be forgiven...

Let me follow your examples list, to start with.

Engines
Far from denying the advantages of electronic control, of course.
Otoh, as I'm told by several owners and also yards, the electronic-related inconveniences outnumbers by far the troubles of mechanical engines - let alone the cost to fix them.
Besides, electronic control has been exploited by engine builders as a mean of getting more power (hence more money!) from any given block.
Just as an example, let's take the MAN V12 engine: the mechanical governor version used to give a 1000hp output. Since the introduction of electronics and common rail, they constantly increased the power, up to the latest incarnation of the very same V12 block, where they also increased the stroke from 142 to 157mm (hence the total displacement from 22 to 24 liters), and they are now offering a 1900hp version of it. Yes, from 1000 to 1900, i.e. almost double the original power, and more than in your C32 engines, with EIGHT liters less - WTF?!?
Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that this is yet another advantage, in terms of weight reduction for any given power, on a P hull.
But I can't help thinking that durability/longevity is bound to be affected, eventually...

Bonded windows
Imho, the boating industry lost the plot with them, and went a bit too far.
I mean, nobody in automotive industry would think to use bonded glass for windows which are supposed to be opened, for very obvious reasons. But that's exactly what they did with boats, FFS!
As a result, sliding windows that can be widely opened to allow a proper air circulation are now a thing of the past.
Besides, some yards invented weird opening mechanism to get at least some partial opening - which btw makes me wonder if the primary purpose of bonded glasses (i.e. cost reduction) wasn't eventually defeated by these complications, but that's another matter altogether.
Also, the only windshields I've ever seen which got cracked with no apparent reason (two of them) were bonded.
I don't know if/to which extent that was due to bonding, but as a matter of fact I've never seen that happening in any framed windshield - of which there's still plenty around, and also on much older boats, obvously.
Lastly, but I concede that this is an each to their own thing, I actually like the look of s/steel frames, which to my eyes give a more "solid" appearance to the boat.

Appliances & onboard electronics
Agreed, from a functional standpoint, modern equipment have more to offer.
Otoh, the 20 years old s/steel gas cooktop on my old tub, after swmbo cleans it, still shines as if it were brand new - and I can assure you that the food quality couldn't be better if it were cooked on anything more modern...
Also, my bulletproof Furuno radar with a CRT green screen gives me all the confidence I need, and doesn't make me wish I had a digital radar, a colour screen, chart overlapping, whatever. And not because I never tried these gadgets, but because I sincerely don't think they are significantly better in real world, as opposed to what they print on brochures.
Same goes for plotters and other stuff. 'Course touchscreen etc. are nice things to play with, but I'd rather invest in some good red wine, than in such upgrades - again imho, of course.

Old GRP/resin
This is an interesting point, which I recently had the opportunity to discuss with a couple of folks who know intimately two different IT yards. One of them was actually the yard owner, before eventually closing down a few years ago. And the other one has a company that still moulds hulls, as a supplier for another yard.
Anyway, both confirmed me that during the 90s there was a change in the vinylester resins used for hull lamination, and that in terms of overall specs/performances, the older resins were much better.
The only (very good, actually) reason why the old resins were abandoned is that they were recognised as toxic for the operators who handled them.
I believe this has something to see with some carcinogen solvents like styrene (as I recall also from my days in chemical industry), but I'm not positive about that.
Otoh, believe it or not, both these folks suggested that in my boots they would rather look for one of their boats built in the early 90s, than one 10 years younger - reason being that they expect older hulls to last longer, and with less risk of osmosis/blistering.

Rotomoulded plastic vs. GRP or s/steel
That's bound to depend on the type of tank, I reckon - if you mean that you'd rather have rotomoulded plastic than s/steel for fuel, I beg to differ.
Besides, if you wish to build structural tanks along the bottom of a GRP hull, you can only do that using GRP.
And I must say that the few boats I've seen which were built this way are by far those that gave me the most striking feeling of strength and stiffness.

All that said, there are several other things that during my recent search stroke me as better built (or better selected/installed) in older boats.

Internal furniture is one of them for good, but that has already been discussed, and as I understand you also agreed on that. I will just add a couple of things on this point:
a) imho, veneered MDF has no place in any environment which is often exposed to direct sunshine, together with relevant temperature and humidity excursions - sounds like a boat, doesn't it?
Proof of that is that I've seen several veneered panels already cracked on an 8 years old boat, whereas a 15 yo boat of the same yard (all solid wood) had zero defects.
b) I know for sure that during the years of high gloss interiors, Uniesse (and possibly also others, not sure - though I don't think anyone is doing this anymore), used to install all furniture twice: firstly, to fit all bits in place perfectly, before removing everything, cleaning, laquering in multiple stages, and eventually reinstalling. Go figure...

Another thing I noticed is that several builders used to fit components specifically made for their own yard, if not even for each of their models.
Rails, portholes, cleats, fairleads, door handles, switches, hinges, other steel bits... The list goes on.
In more recent boats, there's much less of that. Most bits are just selected from some chandler catalogue, I guess depending on who is offering the higher discounts - and it shows, in spades.

Assembling is, generally speaking, another area that went downhill through the years. That's pretty evident in the interiors, but even more so under the skin.
Having lifted several floor hatches, and squeezed inside some hidden parts of e/r, to me it's pretty obvious that on most recent boats everything was done dedicating progressively less and less working hours, and probably also less qualified manpower.
Not to mention leftovers: I found much more screws, bits of electrical wires, etc. in newer boats, compared to older ones.
And I don't think this is because over time these things disappear, or are picked up by someone...

There are also other details that I could mention, but some of them are pretty much yard/model specific, and I guess this post is already long enough to actually become boring.
Though sometimes I thought (already in the past, but particularly during my recent market searches) that the pleasure boat industry evolution during the last quarter of a century would deserve a case study.
With a title like "A disaster waiting to happen", or something along that lines.
In fact, we'll never know for sure of course, because a countercheck would require going backwards in time, re-writing history, but I have a funny feeling that the world crisis has only accelerated a decline that was bound to happen anyway.
Particularly after most of the industry - once based on passionate individuals, whose company and their products were not just means for making money, but also their pride and joy - was taken over by scam artists. But that's obviously another chapter, though I'm convinced that there's a relation between the quality of the products and the shareholders structure/targets.

PS: with apologies for the long post, and thanking in advance anyone with enough patience to read it! :encouragement:

 

[Trundlebug]

Interesting post!

Some very valid and reasoned points there, which made some thoughts come to my mind.

I wonder if the steady push in manufacturing, pioneered mainly in the automotive industry, towards modern manufacturing techniques and involving the elimination of waste with more efficient assembly to reduce labour times has something to do with all this.
Although when done properly it should also equate to an increase in quality because things have to be more consistent and repeatable, that can only go so far in a boat because of the variability of the moulding process (and materials) and lower volumes compared to automotive. However one of the ways is to reduce the number of items so there are fewer, larger lumps and maybe more generic chandlery supplied items.
That can end up giving a cheaper "feel".

In addition to the changes in manufacturing techniques driven by the need to compete has come the inevtiable cost accounting driven efficiencies. Although in the past some items were custom made, those companies may no longer exist because they went out of business - the survivors were the ones who checked the cost of all the bolt on items and sourced the best value, not necessarily the best regardless of cost. Efficiencies of scale inevitably mean that a certain e.g. cleat manufacturer used by everyone, producing in large volume can achieve higher quality at lower cost than a custom made item. Hence why you're likely to see the same things on lots of boats.

I think one very valid point you make is regards the reduction in the use of skilled labour. With ageing workforces slowly retiring and disappearing the need to assemble using semi skilled labour inevitably drives some changes which will be visible to the kind of clientele who buy boats: people who were around when skilled labour used to assemble them and can spot the difference now.

I think overall the changes towards more mechanisation, automation and skill reduction will lead to boats with less individuality - and maybe this translates to what you mention as a lack of feel of being made by people with pride?

 

[Sailorsam101]

One thing that has not been touched on here yet is what happens when modern boats get older.

My targa is 25 years old and I can fix almost everything on it...parts are easy to get to and there isn't much that would cost the earth to fix.

But on modern boats everything is electronic meaning that they just can't be fixed at sea or by the average person. Will there electronics last 25 years of being thrown about..maybe but maybe not?

I would much rather have an older, mechanical boat that I can fix than a modern gadget filled boat.

It's just the same on motorbikes...pre 2006 bikes were easy to work on..nothing fancy and I could do it all. After that time ABS, traction control, emission crap and other electronic rubbish all came in because of EU regulations meaning that the majority of it has to be replaced if it fails rather than being fixed.

That said on almost all bikes I know the first thing people do is to throw away all the emission crap and return it to how it would have been pre 2005.

 

[Sandmartin]

Old boats are definitely better.

My 40+ year old has a grp hull at least 1/2 inch thick with no signs of osmosis.
My engines are Ford Lorry engines with no electronics or turbochargers; they are reliable, agricultural and simple for DIY maintenance. Still lots around in fishing boats, tractors and Lorries; and Ford still supply factory reconditioned units.
The interior has real wood not plastic or laminate.
No dip when I get onboard and grandkids can jump cabin top without it flexing.
It has a proper big solid keel so I can run and one engine and not worry if I touch.

OK she is not very fast, but she is very stable, reliable and seaworthy.

I just cannot understand why there is not a big industry refitting these old solid hulls.

.

 

[Sandmartin]

I agree entirely. Just like to add a couple of points about GRP hulls that I learned on a GRP course.

When they started making GRP hulls they did not know how thick to make them, so they make them as thick as a wooden one would have been, generally 1/2inch plus.

Over the years, though economies and experiment, they started making them thinner and thinner. Until in the 70/80s when there were major problems with boats - literally cracking up.

With panic R&D the industry quickly established the basic fact that GRP has to be either so solid it does not flex. Or so thin it can flex without cracking. That is why modern planning boats have hulls you can see light and shadows through.

With the need for speed and economy , lighter and thinner hulls became the way forward.

Osmosis.

Firstly, Minesweepers and other commercial heavily built GRP boats do not get osmosis. It is only boats built to look smooth with a pretty gel coat that get osmosis.

Secondly, If an old boat with a 1-2 mm gel coat and 12+ mm GRP does get osmosis, just sand it out and apply more gel coat. If a new boat with less than a mm of gel coat and only 2-4 mm GRP gets osmosis you have serious problems.

Thirdly, Unfortunatly, surveyers do not differentiate between and an old thick hull boat and a new thin hull boat that have a touch of osmosis. Thus putting people off some of the best purchaces..

In conclusion.
I cannot understand why boatyards are not refitting old and very solid GPR hulls that would last another 50 years, with modern interiors. If I had the finance (and was younger) I would do this. Buy up old thick hulled GRP boats and fit them out with modern interiors.

 

[MapisM]

I think overall the changes towards more mechanisation, automation and skill reduction will lead to boats with less individuality - and maybe this translates to what you mention as a lack of feel of being made by people with pride?

Yep, eventually several details, maybe not so relevant when considered alone, can translate in an overall liveaboard feeling which, quite often, is nicer with older boats.
As BartW nicely puts it sometimes, not all boats are "character" boats...!

 

[MapisM]

In conclusion.
I cannot understand why boatyards are not refitting old and very solid GPR hulls that would last another 50 years, with modern interiors. If I had the finance (and was younger) I would do this. Buy up old thick hulled GRP boats and fit them out with modern interiors.

I do see your point, and sympathize with it. Wholeheartedly.
Otoh, I also understand why boatyards don't do that - well, aside from very few, and only if specifically required/commissioned by some folks with more money than sense (see icebreakers, tugs, etc. refitted as superyachts): it would be very hard to make such business profitable, I'm afraid... :ambivalence:

 

[scubaman]

I spoke to an owner of a Fjord 38 (of 1972 vintage) yesterday who certainly seems to share the sentiment on this thread. He bought the boat new when he was 25 and has kept it ever since. The boat is on the third pair of engines at the moment after 50.000 nm's, but the boat itself is still solid as a rock.

Regarding the third pair of engines; his comment was that the hours are not the problem but rather the years, as the inevitable corrosion on the various components of the cooling system wreck an engine in 15-20 years(!?).

 

[MapisM]

Regarding the third pair of engines; his comment was that the hours are not the problem but rather the years, as the inevitable corrosion on the various components of the cooling system wreck an engine in 15-20 years(!?).

Well, I hope that my 20yo metal lumps, with less than 2000 hours, are still a bit far from being wrecked...
...touch wood, fingers crossed, etc.!

As an aside, considering the overwhelming agreement so far to the whole point of this thread, with the only exception of jfm (who actually did "half-agree", anyway), there's another thing I must say:
I do understand perfectly the wish/interest in buying and speccing a brand new boat (or several of them!). And maybe, I would do the same, if my budget could stretch to that.
Otoh, what I'd really love to do (in my dreams!) is going backward to the early 90s, and spec a new boat based on what the yards were capable and willing to build back then.
The only two exceptions being electronic engines (avoiding those with extreme power/displacement ratios, and sticking to models with more reasonable ratings) and instrumentation (yes, I did say that my CRT Furuno is good enough, but not that it's better than more modern stuff... )

 

[scubaman]

Well, I hope that my 20yo metal lumps, with less than 2000 hours, are still a bit far from being wrecked...
...touch wood, fingers crossed, etc.!

I did find that comment a bit odd although to be precise, he did also comment that being at least partly attributed to the long winter periods during which corrosion becomes a problem. Not quite sure what to make of that comment, tbh, typical winterizing procedure round here always involves running glycol into the engines to preserve also the raw water side.

No such problems with your amazingly smoke free Cat's .