Used boat prices . . . . tell me I'm wrong

[PaulGS]

Having sourced a mooring I'm moving closer to being able to actually pull the trigger on buying a 'much loved' cruiser. So many ads though, feature tidy-looking boats but with ancient and rusty engines. I realise that you can't judge an engine's reliability by it's appearance - but I do. I'm nervous of being the person owning the engine when the music stops, so I try and value a boat sans engine and then calculate how much I'd have spent in the worst-case of having to fit a new engine - it'd be some way beyond the ceiling price of the boat. By this 'method' the vast majority of sub-£10k boats are over-valued. Ideally I'd like a boat with an engine in the summer of it's life - 10 or 12 years old, maybe a couple of thousand hours on it, which, to me, would take the value of the £5k boat up to £8k - but these are rare; few people seem to have thought it worth the outlay even 10 years ago. We're just chatting around the cracker barrel but does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Wansworth]

Having sourced a mooring I'm moving closer to being able to actually pull the trigger on buying a 'much loved' cruiser. So many ads though, feature tidy-looking boats but with ancient and rusty engines. I realise that you can't judge an engine's reliability by it's appearance - but I do. I'm nervous of being the person owning the engine when the music stops, so I try and value a boat sans engine and then calculate how much I'd have spent in the worst-case of having to fit a new engine - it'd be some way beyond the ceiling price of the boat. By this 'method' the vast majority of sub-£10k boats are over-valued. Ideally I'd like a boat with an engine in the summer of it's life - 10 or 12 years old, maybe a couple of thousand hours on it, which, to me, would take the value of the £5k boat up to £8k - but these are rare; few people seem to have thought it worth the outlay even 10 years ago. We're just chatting around the cracker barrel but does anyone have any thoughts?

Join the club

 

[oldmanofthehills]

As Wansworth said "join the club". I bought a boat cheapish thinking that with a make known for longevity I could easily and economically sort the engine out (Bukh). Well I was wrong and after 2 years just bought a new one. Its lovely but I am £7000 worse for the saga, and could have kept it below £5500 if I had not wasted effort mending the unmendable.

Incidentally, after 5 years a new engine adds little value to a boat. I do about 100hrs a year on engine (500 mile) and that includes running the length of the UK or going to Brittany and back so maybe 1000hr after 10 years not thousands.

So either buy a boat with a proven sound engine or budget for replacement possibly second hand from Marine Enterprises.

Oh and my apparently immaculate pristine condition sails blew out in the first strong blow as age had weakened them anyway- that was another £2500.


So check engine and inspect sails with suspicion and distrust.

 

[Minerva]

As Wansworth said "join the club". I bought a boat cheapish thinking that with a make known for longevity I could easily and economically sort the engine out (Bukh). Well I was wrong and after 2 years just bought a new one. Its lovely but I am £7000 worse for the saga, and could have kept it below £5500 if I had not wasted effort mending the unmendable.

Incidentally, after 5 years a new engine adds little value to a boat. I do about 100hrs a year on engine (500 mile) and that includes running the length of the UK or going to Brittany and back so maybe 1000hr after 10 years not thousands.

So either buy a boat with a proven sound engine or budget for replacement possibly second hand from Marine Enterprises.

Oh and my apparently immaculate pristine condition sails blew out in the first strong blow as age had weakened them anyway- that was another £2500.


So check engine and inspect sails with suspicion and distrust.

Have you used Marine Enterprises before? - I've seen the company offering what looks like good value used and "overhauled" engines. Not sure whether it / they are a good idea or they fall into the trap of looking good value but in practice are terrible value; ie Not spending enough money now and as a result ending up buying a re-con engine now and then a new engine in 5 years when the re-con engine dies...

 

[Supertramp]

Much on here about it not being the age of the engine but how well it is looked after. Hard to verify I accept. I keep a maintenance log of all tasks on the boat, mainly to help me keep track of things. The sound and how an engine runs is also a good indicator.

I have a 15 year old engine with only 650 hours, a third done by me in the last 2 years. Sounds good but I suspect many routine changes and checks were not done annually, especially of the ancillary bits like pumps, cooling, mounts etc.

Also agree with oldmanofthehills about sails. One look at my genoa in 30knts was enough to trigger replacement.

You are right about smaller, cheaper boats and the proportion of boat value taken by replacement items. My advice would be to find good sails, a working engine not too old and avoid anything complicated in electronics, windows, steering etc. where repair and replace costs can escalate.

 

[Lightwave395]

Have you used Marine Enterprises before? - I've seen the company offering what looks like good value used and "overhauled" engines. Not sure whether it / they are a good idea or they fall into the trap of looking good value but in practice are terrible value; ie Not spending enough money now and as a result ending up buying a re-con engine now and then a new engine in 5 years when the re-con engine dies...

I was quoted around £3.5K to 'overhaul' my 25 year old 3GM30 a few years ago. I thought long and hard but concluded that would result in a 'better condition' 25 year old engine so I decided no and replaced it with a 3YM30 - quieter, a bit more frugal and starts instantly every time

 

[Tranona]

Having sourced a mooring I'm moving closer to being able to actually pull the trigger on buying a 'much loved' cruiser. So many ads though, feature tidy-looking boats but with ancient and rusty engines. I realise that you can't judge an engine's reliability by it's appearance - but I do. I'm nervous of being the person owning the engine when the music stops, so I try and value a boat sans engine and then calculate how much I'd have spent in the worst-case of having to fit a new engine - it'd be some way beyond the ceiling price of the boat. By this 'method' the vast majority of sub-£10k boats are over-valued. Ideally I'd like a boat with an engine in the summer of it's life - 10 or 12 years old, maybe a couple of thousand hours on it, which, to me, would take the value of the £5k boat up to £8k - but these are rare; few people seem to have thought it worth the outlay even 10 years ago. We're just chatting around the cracker barrel but does anyone have any thoughts?

Value is a personal construct - something you think is overvalued is a bargain to somebody else. You are looking t boats in the sunset of their lives and in reality the purchase cost is just an entry fee to a lifetime of expenditure and if your objective is economic regular use with low ongoing maintenance costs then it is perhaps better to recognise that you have to spend more than £10k initially to buy a boat that might meet that requirement.

The boats you see for sale are in that position for exactly the same reason you are reluctant to buy - the owners have come to the conclusion that they are no longer economic to keep and use and are looking to get back as much as they can as well as escape from the ongoing costs. You do sometimes see what you are looking for - a decent set of sails and a modern working engine, but not very often simply because owners will not want to sell. The rare ones that do come on the market sell very quickly.

 

[Minerva]

Value is a personal construct - something you think is overvalued is a bargain to somebody else. You are looking t boats in the sunset of their lives and in reality the purchase cost is just an entry fee to a lifetime of expenditure and if your objective is economic regular use with low ongoing maintenance costs then it is perhaps better to recognise that you have to spend more than £10k initially to buy a boat that might meet that requirement.

The boats you see for sale are in that position for exactly the same reason you are reluctant to buy - the owners have come to the conclusion that they are no longer economic to keep and use and are looking to get back as much as they can as well as escape from the ongoing costs. You do sometimes see what you are looking for - a decent set of sails and a modern working engine, but not very often simply because owners will not want to sell. The rare ones that do come on the market sell very quickly.

Not always the case: the boat I'm currently dwelling on was bought when owner retired in the mid 90's. He's now not able to sail and priced the boat at £3x,000. Problems being it needs new sails, new standing rigging, new running rigging, new batteries, new instruments, new calorifier, has a near 50 year old engine etc and that before the first sailing season which will undoubtably uncover more issues.

I like the boat, but to make it viable I recon the price needs to start with a 1 or a very low 2, not a 3 but wouldn't want to insult the owner over what was his pride an joy. I suspect other prospective buyers have thought the same as it's been on the hard & on the market for a number of years now....

 

[Tranona]

Have you used Marine Enterprises before? - I've seen the company offering what looks like good value used and "overhauled" engines. Not sure whether it / they are a good idea or they fall into the trap of looking good value but in practice are terrible value; ie Not spending enough money now and as a result ending up buying a re-con engine now and then a new engine in 5 years when the re-con engine dies...

Yes, I considered buying from them, but decided against for 2 reasons. The first was that to get the specific configuration of engine/box I wanted was difficult and put the cost up and second because it would not be a direct replacement the cost of mods unless DIY installation ate into the difference between that route and going new. The estimate for using a used engine including the installation was £5k compared with the actual £8.5 for the new engine. In either case minus the £1.5k I got for the old engine! The used route would have been a 10-15 year old engine with maybe 1500 hours compared with a new engine of a better design. The other alternative was to refurbish the old engine which was in good order mechanically but needed some work and better installation. Estimates for that were £3-4k, mostly labour to end up with a 20 year old engine that was not ideal for the boat anyway. Photos show the before and after.

If you are prepared to do all the work yourself and the used engine is well suited to your boat then worth considering, but few modern engines are simple direct replacements for original engines in 40 year old boats.

 

[Tranona]

Not always the case: the boat I'm currently dwelling on was bought when owner retired in the mid 90's. He's now not able to sail and priced the boat at £3x,000. Problems being it needs new sails, new standing rigging, new running rigging, new batteries, new instruments, new calorifier, has a near 50 year old engine etc and that before the first sailing season which will undoubtably uncover more issues.

I like the boat, but to make it viable I recon the price needs to start with a 1 or a very low 2, not a 3 but wouldn't want to insult the owner over what was his pride an joy. I suspect other prospective buyers have thought the same as it's been on the hard & on the market for a number of years now....

That exactly proves my point. Having just done all those jobs on a 40+ year old boat, that os £30-40K worth of work. The owner as you say, still sees it as having a value reflecting his pride and joy.

 

[doug748]

Not always the case: the boat I'm currently dwelling on was bought when owner retired in the mid 90's. He's now not able to sail and priced the boat at £3x,000. Problems being it needs new sails, new standing rigging, new running rigging, new batteries, new instruments, new calorifier, has a near 50 year old engine etc and that before the first sailing season which will undoubtably uncover more issues.

I like the boat, but to make it viable I recon the price needs to start with a 1 or a very low 2, not a 3 but wouldn't want to insult the owner over what was his pride an joy. I suspect other prospective buyers have thought the same as it's been on the hard & on the market for a number of years now....

Without wanting to be harsh, the market is what it is. Your seller may be a wise man or a fool but if you can't meet on a price, you have to move on.

Four years ago, when older boats were as cheap as they have ever been, people were posting that they were "overpriced" They carefully explain all the stuff they "had" to replace and one bloke actually said (I think he was serious as well) that he felt he should be paid to take on an old boat. He is probably still dreaming or taken up golf or something.

Fact is, boating is expensive and sellers will only chip away so far at their asset value in order to furnish a prospective owner with new stuff he feels he "must" have. Much of these shopping lists are, frankly, bloated or simply maintenance items; it harks back to the earlier point, boating is expensive.


On more practical note, diesel engines don't explode very often, they just get more and more difficult to deal with. A clean engine that reflects the condition of the rest of the boat and starts easily should do you for a good few years but do get an opinion from someone who knows as well.

.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Yes, I considered buying from them, but decided against for 2 reasons. The first was that to get the specific configuration of engine/box I wanted was difficult and put the cost up and second because it would not be a direct replacement the cost of mods unless DIY installation ate into the difference between that route and going new. The estimate for using a used engine including the installation was £5k compared with the actual £8.5 for the new engine. In either case minus the £1.5k I got for the old engine! The used route would have been a 10-15 year old engine with maybe 1500 hours compared with a new engine of a better design. The other alternative was to refurbish the old engine which was in good order mechanically but needed some work and better installation. Estimates for that were £3-4k, mostly labour to end up with a 20 year old engine that was not ideal for the boat anyway. Photos show the before and after.

If you are prepared to do all the work yourself and the used engine is well suited to your boat then worth considering, but few modern engines are simple direct replacements for original engines in 40 year old boats.

I used Marine Enterprises when trying to replace my ancient Bukh. The replacement engine ran fine but the gearbox and throttle links were duff so I ended up approaching a Fowey mooring pontoon at 5kts. They initially called in a Cornish suby to look at it who declined to act as it had not been installed by a company he liked, then when I complained the MA workmans van broke down before they got to Cornwall. So I sent engine back and got refund. Other reason was that engine was just as noisy as original and my wheelhouse was amplifying the sound so could not converse with my dear navigator. We love our Beta25 and its least thirsty engine I have ever had but fitting was costly as boat moulded for Bukh

I am sure MA could have sorted the Bukh and I am not sure if my final irritation was simply with Saltash suby, MAs van driver or the van manufacturer. But MA refunded without grumble so someone who promptly makes good a mishap stands high in my regard

 

[penfold]

Bukhs, whatever their intrinsic merits, are not silent.

 

[PeterV]

Keep looking, I couldn’t afford a £2x,000 Westerly which needed new sails, new rigging, headlining replacement and a new engine. There are lots around like that for sale. But then I found one with a new engine for £5,000, which needed new sails, new rigging and headlining replacement. 2 years later I’ve done all the jobs and I’m well pleased. But yes, £5000 is a better more realistic price for a boat which needs that amount of work as many do.

 

[Supertramp]

That exactly proves my point. Having just done all those jobs on a 40+ year old boat, that os £30-40K worth of work. The owner as you say, still sees it as having a value reflecting his pride and joy.

And you have the benefit of knowing things are sorted. Best done at the start or early years of ownership so that you enjoy the benefit.

I think for many the cost of the boat is only a part, often small, of total ownership. Better to start with an idea of total costs over, say 10 years. That way you include engine, sails, rigging, mooring, wintering etc. If it doesn't scare you off then you know what to expect and can put the cost of the boat in perspective relative to other foreseeable costs. And maybe adjust your expectations either way.

 

[jac]

And you have the benefit of knowing things are sorted. Best done at the start or early years of ownership so that you enjoy the benefit.

I think for many the cost of the boat is only a part, often small, of total ownership. Better to start with an idea of total costs over, say 10 years. That way you include engine, sails, rigging, mooring, wintering etc. If it doesn't scare you off then you know what to expect and can put the cost of the boat in perspective relative to other foreseeable costs. And maybe adjust your expectations either way.

I think this is a key factor. We bought in October and have a longish list of things to do. Things like new Standing Rigging is being done now and will last 15 years but is really an ongoing cost as are many boat related costs. It really depends over how many years you want/need to spread them and how many you can afford to do over the first 12-18 m. Assumingt you are going to keep the boat for say 10 years+ then makes sense to front load as many of those replacements as you canin order to enjoy the benefits

 

[Minerva]

Without wanting to be harsh, the market is what it is. Your seller may be a wise man or a fool but if you can't meet on a price, you have to move on.

Four years ago, when older boats were as cheap as they have ever been, people were posting that they were "overpriced" They carefully explain all the stuff they "had" to replace and one bloke actually said (I think he was serious as well) that he felt he should be paid to take on an old boat. He is probably still dreaming or taken up golf or something.

Fact is, boating is expensive and sellers will only chip away so far at their asset value in order to furnish a prospective owner with new stuff he feels he "must" have. Much of these shopping lists are, frankly, bloated or simply maintenance items; it harks back to the earlier point, boating is expensive.


On more practical note, diesel engines don't explode very often, they just get more and more difficult to deal with. A clean engine that reflects the condition of the rest of the boat and starts easily should do you for a good few years but do get an opinion from someone who knows as well.

.

Which is understood - I've owned boats for quite a number of years now; I know only too well what's financially involved.

What I was getting at in the example I'm mulling over, is that to get it to the standard it should be I.e. working and insurable - it really turns into a circa £70k investment at the current asking price. If you look at the market and what £75k will get you, you have to ask what gives you the "best bang for your buck?"

And thus, this boat has sat on the hard with the owner paying storage costs for around half a decade.

 

[Wansworth]

Invictor26……..Huelva 6,500 erutos……get your self down there and time to prepare for Atlantic crossing

 

[jac]

Which is understood - I've owned boats for quite a number of years now; I know only too well what's financially involved.

What I was getting at in the example I'm mulling over, is that to get it to the standard it should be I.e. working and insurable - it really turns into a circa £70k investment at the current asking price. If you look at the market and what £75k will get you, you have to ask what gives you the "best bang for your buck?"

And thus, this boat has sat on the hard with the owner paying storage costs for around half a decade.

And this is then the whole issue of deluded / reluctant sellers ( or chancers) There will probably be someone who wants that specific design of boat, has a larger budget and will pay rather than miss out on another season of sailing

 

[PhillM]

At this end of the market, you might as well pay peanuts for a half-dead boat because, at some stage in the very near future, you are going to buy standing rigging, running rigging, new sails and probably an engine. Most boats at the low end need a decent clean and tidy. But when you are done, you will be able to sail her for up to 10 years, then pass her on for about the same price that you paid because everything you will have bought will have pretty much come to the end of its life.

My new to me old boat cost £2k. I will spend about £6k on her and plan to have her for 3-5 years. I would hope to get my £2K back at the end. So the cost of ownership is going to be about £2k a year plus mooring and running costs. I think that's a reasonable way to have cheap fun.