Unwelcoming Owners' websites

[Seajet]

Not trying to be too stuffy about it, but I think it a duty / obligation to pass on any info one has about boats - which is surely why forums like this exist.

Any enquirer about our boats gets the 12 pages of ' Owner's Top Tips ' long before stumping up a penny; maybe if I charged for this I'd either be a rich git or the Owner's Association would have disappeared long ago !

Past owners are still welcomed, with a special ' life membership ' mention for those who have come up with particularly helpful stuff.

With luck it will still be going long after me.

 

[aquaplane]

That's good Andy, that is how I would like to see owners web sites work.

It's not how some work though. The info is held to ransom until you cough up and buy it, even if it given freely by paying contributors.

 

[oldbilbo]

"There ain't no such animule as a sellers' market..."

I wanted, for a while, to find out something of the Parker 285. But 'punters' are fickle critturs. If too difficult, go elsewhere....

 

[Sticky Fingers]

...I wanted, for a while, to find out something of the Parker 285. But 'punters' are fickle critturs. If too difficult, go elsewhere....

It's drifted a bit. But I think the point is made. Cliques. Closed circles. To me, as a 60-something want-to-join-in., it looks and feels amazingly unwelcoming. So, in the immortal words of Deborah Meaden, "I'm out". I don't for a moment imagine that anyone cares very much, but this elitism, separatism, "I'm better than you" kind of attitude is something that I simply detest. It's a maritime manifestation of the Masons and Masonic attitudes where knowledge is power and those who do not have the knowledge are automatically excluded.

 

[tudorsailor]

I run the fledgling website for owners of Oysters both old and recent. The site is for owners. There is no fee for signing up but one does need to be an owner to have access.

I have had people contact me to get access who are in various stages of possible purchase of a yacht. I have refused them access in as nice a way as possible. There are several reasons for this. Firstly people want to reduce the number of emails in their inbox. However I want users to agree to have a daily digest by email of the topics discussed. If one allowed potential buyers on to the site, the questions from the potential buyers would get tedious for owners and might lead them to change their settings so as not to get notifications of post.
Lastly, if one was selling your yacht, would you want a potential buyer see you previous posts about whatever problems you might have discussed in public? If potential buyers were to have access, then owners would be more hesitant about discussing issues in the open

I have polled the users of the site and they generally agreed with restricted access

When I have explained the above to serious buyers, they have not complained and have generally made contact once their purchase is complete

For people who seem serious, I have posted on their behalf asking for owners of a certain model to allow the future owner to contact them directly. That usually works well

TS

 

[Lucky Duck]

Lastly, if one was selling your yacht, would you want a potential buyer see you previous posts about whatever problems you might have discussed in public? If potential buyers were to have access, then owners would be more hesitant about discussing issues in the open

Same applies to pretty much anybody who posts on YBW for advice with problems with their boat.

 

[pmagowan]

I just don't get it. All the excuses for restricted access seem very contrived to me and I wouldn't join any site like that. Each to their own but I think these things flourish with openess and numbers. The risk to 'forums' is lack of engagement and small numbers. I can understand members only sections but these should be as small as possible IMO.

 

[superheat6k]

I just don't get it. All the excuses for restricted access seem very contrived to me and I wouldn't join any site like that. Each to their own but I think these things flourish with openess and numbers. The risk to 'forums' is lack of engagement and small numbers. I can understand members only sections but these should be as small as possible IMO.

The only Members Only section we have is the equipment section where manuals and the like are stored. These are provided for the benefit of the signed up members, most of whom are owners, and hence users of said equipment, so not available to google manual harvesters who then sell them on.

We do not record any details of the members on the website, save credits for articles provided. Once someone signs up they, and indeed all members, are provided with the updated member list on an excel spreadsheet maintained by the sterling efforts of our administrator.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I don't understand the point of view of those who say that there is a duty to give boating information away free of charge.

There is a cost to answering questions, or publishing answers. For most industries, this is a marketing cost. People want to know what they're buying, and how to look after it. Sadly, making boats has never been very profitable. So, until recently, very few boats were sold with handbooks and the technical backup that car buyers take for granted. And very few continued long enough in trade to keep a Q & A running after bankruptcy. So self help volunteer organisations filled the gap.

New boats now have handbooks. That adds a few thousand £ to be spread over the production run. That cost exists however the work is disseminated - by print, or on-line. And it's an up-front overhead a lot more than £100 per boat.

I reckon these owner associations do a superb job for the £15 to £40 pa they charge. Possible, because they're run by unpaid volunteers who save owners a large amount of research time - by organising a large knowledge exchange system.

If you don't join, you don't have the right to tell them how to do their job. They're volunteers. They'll do it their way. Let them test the market - charge what they will, serve whom they wish. I think charging the "living wage rate" per hour of volunteer time used to research and answer non-members questions would be eminently reasonable. And far more expensive than most membership fees!

 

[Seajet]

JimB,

to be clear I do ask £10 P.A. from members, who get the really detailed stuff it has taken me and others a lot of time - and cost - to gather.

For quick examples the website has hosting costs, still incurs ink & postage and I have occasionally travelled quite long distances to sort out, record and photograph obscure details.

As the existence of the Owner's Association hopefully promotes or at least explains about a type of boat, the owners gain from this when coming to sell ( when I offer free ad's to members too ) - so it's right they should contribute a little financially towards this aspect and the hopefully helpful, money saving info' during ownership in the meantime.

However I think initial helpful info' with tips and pointers, history maybe should surely be free, just as one would hope for when meeting a knowledgable owner at a quayside ?

I'd love to charge for my time put in over the years, but I'm quite certain there would be a membership of precisely one !

 

[jimbaerselman]

to be clear I do ask £10 P.A. from members, who get the really detailed stuff it has taken me and others a lot of time - and cost - to gather . . . . . <big snip> . . . . . . so it's right they should contribute a little financially towards this aspect and the hopefully helpful, money saving info' during ownership in the meantime.

If people pay, you earned it!

However I think initial helpful info' with tips and pointers, history maybe should surely be free, just as one would hope for when meeting a knowledgable owner at a quayside ?

That's good marketing. Tell them what's in the tin, and prove it by letting them taste a spoonful or four.

I'd love to charge for my time put in over the years, but I'm quite certain there would be a membership of precisely one !

The saddest thing is, if a site/association doesn't make enough money, when the owner/owners (whose hobby it is) drop off the edge, so does the site. That means: charge for access; find a sponsor whose clients use your site; adverts; trading in relevant books or other consumables - and so on.

So, I have to raise the income to attract a successor - and maybe you do too!

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't understand the point of view of those who say that there is a duty to give boating information away free of charge.

I don't think anyone has made that claim. What I have seen are suggestions that (a) if owner's associations want to promote their boats, a dog-in-the-manger attitude to prospective owners is probably counter productive and that (b) when the information has been supplied free of charge it is a bit off to charge for it, unless the original author agreed to that when donating the information.

I wrote a lot of the WOA wiki about the Jouster and I would be considerably pissed off if they started charging people to read it.

 

[silver-fox]

+1

 

[[163233]]

...would you want a potential buyer see you previous posts about whatever problems you might have discussed in public?

While I have sympathy, once the new owner signs up and finds that their problem was well known and concealed during the sale not only is it strong evidence that the sale was disingenuous, but also that the owners site was in some way complicit in that deceit.

There's no easy way out of this.

 

[Seajet]

While I have sympathy, once the new owner signs up and finds that their problem was well known and concealed during the sale not only is it strong evidence that the sale was disingenuous, but also that the owners site was in some way complicit in that deceit.

There's no easy way out of this.

While I suppose this may be a problem with complex or very expensive boats, I have found this problem easily dealt with.

It happened quite a while ago that a boat I knew of had an unusual, major safety-critical problem, caused by a completely non standard wholly inadequate keel compounded by a lack of maintainence and care; the owner asked me about it, and I reacted strongly that the boat should not be used and must be fixed.

NB while ' get a new keel ' may sound alarming, we are lucky to have these available and the replacement process is not difficult, just hassle and a bit of thought.

That earned me a snotty ' up yours I'm proceeding as normal ' response.

I pointed out the risk to any unsuspecting crew, and that if the owner carried on as things were they would be liable if anything nasty happened, as they knew full well about the problem.

The idiot's answer was to try to sell the boat as was !

I refused to advertise the boat on the class website unless the problem was either fixed or mentioned - so of course they advertised her elsewhere.

I am no legal expert but I reckoned I was on safe moral grounds at least, so mentioned the problem and boat on the ' Buyer's Guide '.

As it happened the decent person who ended up buying - and fixing - the boat hadn't seen my warning, but did contact me by e-mail just to ask general advice so I was able to tell them about it and the fix.

The idiot previous owner wasn't happy but my response, as our American chums would put it, was ' bite me '.

He knew he hadn't a leg to stand on so sold the boat at a low enough price to make the the new keel relatively painless for the new owner - who for his trouble ended up with a good boat with a brand new keel, always nice to have and a good resale point in future.

Maybe legal experts may cringe, but as I see it, people and the class reputation were saved from a potentially fatal accident, and the boat ended up with the fit-out and owner she deserved - win-win !

 

[bobgarrett]

I find it surprising that boat owners and potential owners are reluctant to spend what is a small sum on joining an owners' association relative to the cost of owning or buying a boat.
As others have said there are costs to running such sites as well as the time others give for free.
Be grateful and recognise that something free is often worthless.

 

[guardian]

I run the fledgling website for owners of Oysters both old and recent. The site is for owners. There is no fee for signing up but one does need to be an owner to have access.

I have had people contact me to get access who are in various stages of possible purchase of a yacht. I have refused them access in as nice a way as possible. There are several reasons for this. Firstly people want to reduce the number of emails in their inbox. However I want users to agree to have a daily digest by email of the topics discussed. If one allowed potential buyers on to the site, the questions from the potential buyers would get tedious for owners and might lead them to change their settings so as not to get notifications of post.
Lastly, if one was selling your yacht, would you want a potential buyer see you previous posts about whatever problems you might have discussed in public? If potential buyers were to have access, then owners would be more hesitant about discussing issues in the open

I have polled the users of the site and they generally agreed with restricted access

When I have explained the above to serious buyers, they have not complained and have generally made contact once their purchase is complete

For people who seem serious, I have posted on their behalf asking for owners of a certain model to allow the future owner to contact them directly. That usually works well

TS

I couldn't have put it better myself...........................................................................................................................as to why sailing as a pastime is dying on its arse!

 

[Bobc]

But where does the £20/annum actually go?

I'm involved in the Bavaria association, and I'll give you some ideas where the money goes in that:-

Each year we print and mail out a yearbook.
Anyone who organises a rally and does a write-up for the e-mag gets their mooring fees re-imbursed
Anyone who writes a technical or informative article gets paid a small amount as a "thank you for your time and trouble"
We have to pay insurance annually
We have to pay the RYA for affilliation
When a new member joins, we send out a welcome pack with a yearbook and other bits in
There is hosting and maintenance of the website and other digital channels

and that's not all of the costs, just some examples.

Now ask yourself if that £20/yr is good value or not.

 

[nigelmercier]

I'm involved in the Bavaria association, and I'll give you some ideas where the money goes ...

But do the members actually want all that? In the age of the Internet, many just want a forum. I certainly did, and was shocked at how poor the BOA forum was. They kindly sent a refund, so I started my own forum.

 

[Bobc]

Indeed Nigel. If all people want is a Forum as you did, that's fine and you are offering them that. You would be pretty disappointed if you paid a fee and just got a forum.

I was responding to the question about where the money goes, and the type of activities I've listed are typical of a "proper" owners association that charges an annual membership.

Members are regularly asked what they want and what they value, and most value the rallies, the yearbook, the regular mags, and the supplier discounts that they get.