Towable genoa cars on a 27f yacht?

[zoidberg]

Not if it's as old as mine!

Multihulls usually focus on outhalers, since we have a lot of beam to aid hauling and because they can be pretty fast off with wind without a chute if the jib is hauled out just so. Tight inside settings for pinching are generally a bad idea, since we are better off sailing just a little full and much faster (I can tack through 80 degrees, but I sail as much as 50% faster tacking through 100 degrees, making practically no leeway).

Here's an archived pic of 'Triohe', Richard Roscoe's fine handbuilt Farrier shortly after he 'n me won our Class in the 2003 Fastnet Race, completing a Series Win with four Firsts out of five RORC Starts, and a Second.

I can't now remember how much twinging and tweakery we used, but the boat was - at times - startlingly fast.

 

[Refueler]

One of my dinghies had Barber Haulers, pulling outboard and slightly forwards, this was pretty good for close reaching or 'just cracked off a bit' for sailing a little lower in choppier water.
A boat I used to race on had a second set of outboard genoa tracks, so you could rig a second sheet to the sail.
You've got to keep a crew of 10 busy somehow!

My 38 racer has twin cars on each track ... that can make life interesting.

 

[justanothersailboat]

I’m just about to do this, found Barton sliding cars fit my 25mm t track, two cars and end stops with pulleys cost £280, not to bad. Being mostly single handed I find moving current cars not easy, impossible under load, so have to adjust the slack one before tack which I keep forgetting so sail shape never good as it could be

I too am looking at this upgrade. However: I am expecting that even with the line and some good mechanical advantage from the pulley system, I don't think I will be able to move the car while the genoa sheet is under load - I just expect that it will be a lot easier to let it off a little, make a quick move and haul the sheet back in. On my not so speedy cruiser I am not really expecting a big performance advantage, just a bit of satisfaction. I am expecting it to make it easier to keep a good shape when I need to reef the genoa a little... though not of course when I have to reef a bit more, that would be too much to ask.

Some of these suggestions about "Barber Haulers" seem very interesting and it's not something I'd properly considered. I'd only seen them on racing boats and I think blinkeredly assumed they were for racers with enough spare hands to pull more strings. I am a little unclear on how many of the suggestions are really the full barber hauler (EDIT: I thought that was two lines and cleats per hauler, two axes of motion, but I seem to have been confusing them with "3D leads" - see thinwater's reply below) and (EDIT AGAIN: whether there is a simpler kind / what the more complicated kind are) - I think I could manage the one-liner but not the two. And I thought the aim here was to pull inwards and down, not outwards - how does the out pull work? and is there even room for it on a cruising monohull? Pardon my ignorance here.

 

[thinwater]

I too am looking at this upgrade. However: I am expecting that even with the line and some good mechanical advantage from the pulley system, I don't think I will be able to move the car while the genoa sheet is under load - I just expect that it will be a lot easier to let it off a little, make a quick move and haul the sheet back in. On my not so speedy cruiser I am not really expecting a big performance advantage, just a bit of satisfaction. I am expecting it to make it easier to keep a good shape when I need to reef the genoa a little... though not of course when I have to reef a bit more, that would be too much to ask.

Some of these suggestions about "Barber Haulers" seem very interesting and it's not something I'd properly considered. I'd only seen them on racing boats and I think blinkeredly assumed they were for racers with enough spare hands to pull more strings. I am a little unclear on how many of the suggestions are really the full barber hauler (two lines and cleats per hauler, two axes of motion) and how many are what some seem to call a "tweaker" (one line, inward pull only) - I think I could manage the one-liner but not the two. And I thought the aim here was to pull inwards and down, not outwards - how does the out pull work? and is there even room for it on a cruising monohull? Pardon my ignorance here.

A Barber hauler, named for the Barber brothers who introduced this into Lightning Sailing in the 80s, is an inhauler only. On dinghies they are single purchase, but I've seen up to 4x on larger boats. Some go even higher with cascades.

Many multis use an outhauler only. They usually call it a Barber hauler, but that is a misnomer. Normally single purchase, but can be more.

3D leads have two lines, one in and one out.

You can set them up to adjust under full load, but in practice this is not quite needed. If you are going to roller reef, you pull the lead forward during the process. Out hauling doesn't take that much force (the sheet is not tight) and you set it before jibing.

 

[BobnLesley]

That what I do now but the guilt a killing me...

Don't worry about it, beer is just as effective on guilt as stationary genoa cars, keep drinking until the guilt moves

 

[justanothersailboat]

Thanks Thinwater. I've edited my post to reflect where I had the wrong end of the stick... or control line as it may be.

 

[thinwater]

This photo shows the red/white loop control line that controls outhauling (combing) and down hauling (cabin top). Very compact in the cockpit.

But yes, every tweak seems to add a tripping hazard. I did not rig an outhauler on my cruising cat (avitar image) because it was a tripping hazard on the side decks. Instead, I ran a separate sheet to a rail-mounted track for reaching. I had to use a separate sheet anyway, because the genoa overlapped the cap shrouds, and the shroud base on a cat is way too wide for beating. Awkward, and you did have to plan which sheet to use. But with soft shackles it was pretty easy to switch.

 

[thinwater]

Or leave them to sit quietly and contentedly where they are while you crack open another beer.

[A power boater in disguise?]

I've known fishermen to skip baiting the hook so that a bite does not disturb their siesta.

 

[William_H]

I too am looking at this upgrade. However: I am expecting that even with the line and some good mechanical advantage from the pulley system, I don't think I will be able to move the car while the genoa sheet is under load - I just expect that it will be a lot easier to let it off a little, make a quick move and haul the sheet back in. On my not so speedy cruiser I am not really expecting a big performance advantage, just a bit of satisfaction. I am expecting it to make it easier to keep a good shape when I need to reef the genoa a little... though not of course when I have to reef a bit more, that would be too much to ask.

Some of these suggestions about "Barber Haulers" seem very interesting and it's not something I'd properly considered. I'd only seen them on racing boats and I think blinkeredly assumed they were for racers with enough spare hands to pull more strings. I am a little unclear on how many of the suggestions are really the full barber hauler (EDIT: I thought that was two lines and cleats per hauler, two axes of motion, but I seem to have been confusing them with "3D leads" - see thinwater's reply below) and (EDIT AGAIN: whether there is a simpler kind / what the more complicated kind are) - I think I could manage the one-liner but not the two. And I thought the aim here was to pull inwards and down, not outwards - how does the out pull work? and is there even room for it on a cruising monohull? Pardon my ignorance here.

You can usefully use a Barber Hauler type set up to pull the jib clew outwards and downwards when reaching or even running. It can give a jib that is sheeted outwards (like main sail) but still pulled down to keep jib full and well shaped. When running before the wind it can be a poor mans whisker poll. ie tames the jib when goose winged. It of course can only pull the sheet out to the width of the gunwhale. Jib sheet passes through the ring which has Barber Hauler attached but when not in use does not impede normal jib sheet when tacking etc. Quick and easy to deploy but does add extra ropes on side deck. I can set up so before a race but don't simply because the crew usually insist on flying spinnaker. ol'will

 

[justanothersailboat]

Ah, I get it now. Thanks for the extra info.

 

[Refueler]

I too am looking at this upgrade. However: I am expecting that even with the line and some good mechanical advantage from the pulley system, I don't think I will be able to move the car while the genoa sheet is under load - I just expect that it will be a lot easier to let it off a little, make a quick move and haul the sheet back in. On my not so speedy cruiser I am not really expecting a big performance advantage, just a bit of satisfaction. I am expecting it to make it easier to keep a good shape when I need to reef the genoa a little... though not of course when I have to reef a bit more, that would be too much to ask.

Some of these suggestions about "Barber Haulers" seem very interesting and it's not something I'd properly considered. I'd only seen them on racing boats and I think blinkeredly assumed they were for racers with enough spare hands to pull more strings. I am a little unclear on how many of the suggestions are really the full barber hauler (EDIT: I thought that was two lines and cleats per hauler, two axes of motion, but I seem to have been confusing them with "3D leads" - see thinwater's reply below) and (EDIT AGAIN: whether there is a simpler kind / what the more complicated kind are) - I think I could manage the one-liner but not the two. And I thought the aim here was to pull inwards and down, not outwards - how does the out pull work? and is there even room for it on a cruising monohull? Pardon my ignorance here.

Here's my Saaremaa winning the 2003 Regatta in Tallinn .....

Look closely and you see a single line BH ... the sheet passes through the BH block back to winch / cleat. The BH being to the car ... and a single line. Some BH are not to the cars - being ahead of the car to alter the lead in and therefore set of the foresail. That's fine with a short #1 or less. But once you go larger than a #1 ... such as the 120% in the photo - the BH needs to be further back - best is to use the car - then it can set to work for most size of foresail other than a sweeper.
The single line here actually allows us to let out and create a gennaker like foresail as the sheet is no longer through the car ... the BH can be slacked and sheet then lines up to the winch similar to a gennaker sheet.

We tried various setups on that boat to cover the various foresails we had and this was the easiest and best ... proof of setup being its race success story.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

This photo shows the red/white loop control line that controls outhauling (combing) and down hauling (cabin top). Very compact in the cockpit.

But yes, every tweak seems to add a tripping hazard. I did not rig an outhauler on my cruising cat (avitar image) because it was a tripping hazard on the side decks. Instead, I ran a separate sheet to a rail-mounted track for reaching. I had to use a separate sheet anyway, because the genoa overlapped the cap shrouds, and the shroud base on a cat is way too wide for beating. Awkward, and you did have to plan which sheet to use. But with soft shackles it was pretty easy to switch.

On a Dragonfly they are outhaul only, the jib track defines the ‘hard in’ position. Towable cars plus the barbers give you the shaping options you need. We have double ended blocks on the barbers, jib sheet one end and triangular barber lines, mounted at the outboard end of the fwd ama, through the double ended, then back to a block at the outboard end of the rear ama. Along with the asym. sheets and the code 0 sheets. We have inhaulers for the code 0.

 

[justanothersailboat]

So many variations! I shall be peering incredibly nosily at every boat I pass.

Refueller, your plan looks super cheap and nondisruptive to try...

 

[Refueler]

So many variations! I shall be peering incredibly nosily at every boat I pass.

Refueller, your plan looks super cheap and nondisruptive to try...

It works ..... simple .....

With it - you can sheet in the sail ... cleat off ..... run the BH to the winch and adjust .... cleat off ... put sheet back on winch if short leg before direction change etc.

 

[Gixer]

So many variations! I shall be peering incredibly nosily at every boat I pass.

Haha, I'm going through Boatshed now looking at what other yachts have set up.

 

[thinwater]

On a Dragonfly they are outhaul only, the jib track defines the ‘hard in’ position. Towable cars plus the barbers give you the shaping options you need. We have double ended blocks on the barbers, jib sheet one end and triangular barber lines, mounted at the outboard end of the fwd ama, through the double ended, then back to a block at the outboard end of the rear ama. Along with the asym. sheets and the code 0 sheets. We have inhaulers for the code 0.

Yup, I too use inhaulers for the reacher, located farther aft. It pulls the sheet in and slightly up. Just as the outhaul on the jib pulls the sheet out and slightly down.

 

[jwilson]

There is nothing that annoys me more than an expensive boat being sailed with headsails sheet leads all wrong, usually with the upper leech flapping. I don't have towable cars (bog standard AWB) but I'll put a tack and back in just to adjust the pins.

 

[justanothersailboat]

It really is bad when it's not right. I don't mind adjusting the pins when sailing with someone else on a nice day -as you say, tack by tack. On my own on a less nice day, right when I need it most, the old side-deck crawl is at its least appealing!

 

[Daverw]

It really is bad when it's not right. I don't mind adjusting the pins when sailing with someone else on a nice day -as you say, tack by tack. On my own on a less nice day, right when I need it most, the old side-deck crawl is at its least appealing!

That’s my reasoning as well, just fitted the Barton sliding cars today, took longer to do the eye splicing on the lines to fit the cars, 2:1 lines and have not yet decided if line to pull back is needed. kept the old cars on pins near the cockpit to lead the lines to the sheet winches.
I’ve just been away sailing for 3 weeks and found getting the Genoa set well really makes a difference, on some days over 1 1/2 knots faster, this time I had a buddy boat which at 32ft which is 3ft longer that us we could match his speed but get it wrong no way near.

Just I bit more string to keep tidy now though

 

[Daverw]

I did try jury rigging BH with low friction rings, did work but they kept banging on the deck and side windows when on windward side