wakeup
Active member
I think even if you are paying £50k you shouldn't have to put up with this sort of guff and the mind boggles that Gludy should have to deal with this on a boat > £1M!!!
The Tarquin Trader Saga - Update
- Thread starter Gludy
- Start date
milltech
Active member
I haven't read your saga but a friend of mine won a case against a different UK motor boat builder by having a report from just about the most famous UK motor boat surveyor ever, credibility is everything when you get your expert in the dock, but I'm sure you know ALL that stuff far better than I.
I've deleted most of my mail since I've read your answers down the page. It surprises me that IPC haven't asked to put a surveyor aboard and done their own report, doesn't mean it'll go your way. Isn't that what proper reporting is about, raising standards, telling the truth? Funny that there's no comment from them on this thread either. There comes a point where they need to stand up and be counted to be credible otherwise why should be believe anything they write, isn't this so? Here we are on their website, no comment guys?
I've deleted most of my mail since I've read your answers down the page. It surprises me that IPC haven't asked to put a surveyor aboard and done their own report, doesn't mean it'll go your way. Isn't that what proper reporting is about, raising standards, telling the truth? Funny that there's no comment from them on this thread either. There comes a point where they need to stand up and be counted to be credible otherwise why should be believe anything they write, isn't this so? Here we are on their website, no comment guys?
jhr
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Funny that there's no comment from them on this thread
[/ QUOTE ] Not necessarily, at this point. Although it's not yet sub judice, discretion is probably the better part of valour for them at the moment. Tellingly, however, they haven't pulled this thread, or any of its predecessors. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Funny that there's no comment from them on this thread
[/ QUOTE ] Not necessarily, at this point. Although it's not yet sub judice, discretion is probably the better part of valour for them at the moment. Tellingly, however, they haven't pulled this thread, or any of its predecessors. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Gludy
Active member
I would agree like a shot to an independent survey report that bound both parties to the outcome organised by IPC or anyone else.
I really have been very forgiving with them in the hope that I could get as much done as possible done so as to leave just a residual of problems - its not possible with them they are arrogant and rude in the extreme and as Andy states above - they refute even the most obvious things.
I really have been very forgiving with them in the hope that I could get as much done as possible done so as to leave just a residual of problems - its not possible with them they are arrogant and rude in the extreme and as Andy states above - they refute even the most obvious things.
Jim44
Member
I wish you all the Best, I can't believe how they have treated you, I always liked their Boats and think the 64 in this month mag looks great, but having seen the problems and dealing you have had I would not go near them. I wonder how many of their boats sold to charter, which I was offered a few years ago at LIBS, have serious defaults which have not been corrected.
tome
New member
Been following this in astonishment that the saga is still continuing. Here's just one picture I took back in March, showing one of the engine mounts on Ocean Deep. Good luck Paul, I know you won't be beaten!
Gludy
Active member
Yes that was the day they told me she was ready to go - all jobs done.
We checked and the gearbox oil level did not even show on the dipstick and of course all the engine anodes )and asd it turned out other anodes) were gone! We also had hydraulic oil leaksm engine oil leaks and gearbox oil leaks as well as the engine thrust not even attached to the boat unless you count two screws throughj a 1/4 inch of glass fibre .......... then of course at that stage we did not know the keel was polyfilla or equivalent or the water when underway was to be directed into the engine room roof - but to be fair we did know that all the fridges/microwave etc had problems with most having to be replaced because someone forget to add the ventilation .......
Back in Novermber last year I was a huge advocate of them - now I just sigh as their potential customers appraoch me to find out my experience and then simply do not order a Trader.
Frankly they have managed to offer this service level for so long now and bluff their way through it. How i feel sorry for that protestor with the posters outside their boats at the Southampton Boat Show - he was painted as a bit mad by them but of course he was totally sane, just frustrated to hell.
We checked and the gearbox oil level did not even show on the dipstick and of course all the engine anodes )and asd it turned out other anodes) were gone! We also had hydraulic oil leaksm engine oil leaks and gearbox oil leaks as well as the engine thrust not even attached to the boat unless you count two screws throughj a 1/4 inch of glass fibre .......... then of course at that stage we did not know the keel was polyfilla or equivalent or the water when underway was to be directed into the engine room roof - but to be fair we did know that all the fridges/microwave etc had problems with most having to be replaced because someone forget to add the ventilation .......
Back in Novermber last year I was a huge advocate of them - now I just sigh as their potential customers appraoch me to find out my experience and then simply do not order a Trader.
Frankly they have managed to offer this service level for so long now and bluff their way through it. How i feel sorry for that protestor with the posters outside their boats at the Southampton Boat Show - he was painted as a bit mad by them but of course he was totally sane, just frustrated to hell.
Gludy
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
they haven't pulled this thread, or any of its predecessors.
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of people within the trade just wonder why it has taken so long for this to come out - I find I do not have to explain much - they already know.
they haven't pulled this thread, or any of its predecessors.
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of people within the trade just wonder why it has taken so long for this to come out - I find I do not have to explain much - they already know.
Aardee
Well-known member
I wonder if they'll ask to "borrow" the boat again for LIBS??...I somehow doubt it.
Maybe a competitor would want it "on stand" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Maybe a competitor would want it "on stand" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Gludy
Active member
Tom - since that picture they have had to shim up all those mounts twic just to even get in the same range of alignment. Yet week after week, month after month they refuted my and Andy's claims about the alignment. It was only the fact that i had a proper report done costing almost £1k that also mentioned the small fact tat the engine thrust were actually not even secured anynore as the two screws could be lifted out clean - they were clean because they screwed into thin air!!!
David_Jersey
New member
[ QUOTE ]
approaching the BMF is probably a waste of time. As trade Associations go, they're actually not bad but, ultimately, their chief responsibility is to their members and I'm guessing that their current attitude to the Emsworth Mob is that they're innocent until proven guilty.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gludy,
I am not a lawyer, but something vaguely rings a bell that in the case of a dispute reaching court that the Judges like folk who have at least tried to be reasonable and can demonstrate this and that court is the last option. Although approaching the BMIF may well be pointless, maybe do so to find out if they have an aribtration scheme, indcating a willingness to use this - even if you do not actually intend to do so.
NB I reserve the right to be talking complete bollox /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif....as I probably heard about this on Trisha /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
PS, have you set up the Webisite yet? (sorry, but I lack the will to re-read this thread!)
approaching the BMF is probably a waste of time. As trade Associations go, they're actually not bad but, ultimately, their chief responsibility is to their members and I'm guessing that their current attitude to the Emsworth Mob is that they're innocent until proven guilty.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gludy,
I am not a lawyer, but something vaguely rings a bell that in the case of a dispute reaching court that the Judges like folk who have at least tried to be reasonable and can demonstrate this and that court is the last option. Although approaching the BMIF may well be pointless, maybe do so to find out if they have an aribtration scheme, indcating a willingness to use this - even if you do not actually intend to do so.
NB I reserve the right to be talking complete bollox /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif....as I probably heard about this on Trisha /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
PS, have you set up the Webisite yet? (sorry, but I lack the will to re-read this thread!)
Gludy
Active member
Over four months ago I started copying all corrrespondence to my lawyers.
I can demonstrate over and over again with a full document trail how I have tried to avoid litigation. I can demonstrate over and over again how Trader have ignored my letters and emails, sometimes making promises and then breaking them. I can demonstrate how I have bent over backwards to try and get things fixed but Trader really are on another planet. For example one of the problems is a new coffee table that sits under the main table is was of deplorable quality and not as described in the order.
When this was shown to them they agreed (this is rare) and told me they already had three other customers with the same problem and would order the replacement from Taiwan - they were OK on this because they did not have to pay for it of course.
That was in July - months ago they emailed me with a picture of my new table that had arrived in Emsworth - I gave them check lists of what they should bring with them before they left Emsworth - they forgot it!!!! Then they make no contact for weeks and so the saga goes on. They really could not give a toss about customers- once you pay - just forget it because they will forget you.
I can give the same story for a pile of items that they promised and did not do - legal action on these is simple as they have admitted laibility but it will take legal action to even get part of what they have even admitted to ...... I know this is hard for normal folks to appreciate but they are so extreme in their attitude that they need a bomb to wake them up.
I have spoken to others also taking legal action and beliee me they are as mad as me about it.
They really have no soul at all.
I can demonstrate over and over again with a full document trail how I have tried to avoid litigation. I can demonstrate over and over again how Trader have ignored my letters and emails, sometimes making promises and then breaking them. I can demonstrate how I have bent over backwards to try and get things fixed but Trader really are on another planet. For example one of the problems is a new coffee table that sits under the main table is was of deplorable quality and not as described in the order.
When this was shown to them they agreed (this is rare) and told me they already had three other customers with the same problem and would order the replacement from Taiwan - they were OK on this because they did not have to pay for it of course.
That was in July - months ago they emailed me with a picture of my new table that had arrived in Emsworth - I gave them check lists of what they should bring with them before they left Emsworth - they forgot it!!!! Then they make no contact for weeks and so the saga goes on. They really could not give a toss about customers- once you pay - just forget it because they will forget you.
I can give the same story for a pile of items that they promised and did not do - legal action on these is simple as they have admitted laibility but it will take legal action to even get part of what they have even admitted to ...... I know this is hard for normal folks to appreciate but they are so extreme in their attitude that they need a bomb to wake them up.
I have spoken to others also taking legal action and beliee me they are as mad as me about it.
They really have no soul at all.
Observer
Active member
Your grim determination not to be beaten does you huge credit, Paul. I am sure that most buyers would not have the tenacity that you've shown (and will continue to need, I suspect). It probably doesn't feel like it but I think you are doing a huge service to the boat buying community at large, on the basis that at least some manufacturers who come to hear about your case may just be prompted to have a second thought before they treat any customer as cavalierly as you have been treated.
I hope the eventual outcome is as satisfactory for you as it can be in the circumstances (although it will still be far from satisfactory overall).
Good luck.
Tim
I hope the eventual outcome is as satisfactory for you as it can be in the circumstances (although it will still be far from satisfactory overall).
Good luck.
Tim
Gludy
Active member
Thanks for that Tim.
It is going to be aninteresting ride - just seems so silly because the problems are so balck and white. Trader have already lost sales more than the vlaue of my boat - seems that they are so blind that they cannot see just what damage they are inflicting on themselves - that is part of the unique nature of the problem.
It is going to be aninteresting ride - just seems so silly because the problems are so balck and white. Trader have already lost sales more than the vlaue of my boat - seems that they are so blind that they cannot see just what damage they are inflicting on themselves - that is part of the unique nature of the problem.
Gludy
Active member
Trader have, as usual ignored my email as shown ealrier in this thread, so I have decided to send them a nice short, simple on as copied below in the hope of getting some sort of response.
[ QUOTE ]
To James Course - Tarquin Boat Company
You have yet again failed to respond to my lastest email as well as failing to respond the list emailed to you weekly since July 2006.
I now find that you have also removed the cutlery drawer from the galley - I assume to fix the chip placed in it when repairing the thrust brackets in the engine room.
Could you please send the repaired drawer back to me now - this will save it going onto the list of items being claimed by legal action. You also may choose to send the coffee table that you have even sent me photographs of but failed to deliver and even maybe the stereo speakers.
I have given up any hope of you having the decency to respond to my emails/letters. I suppose even this short one will also fall into your ignored box.
Paul Burgess
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To James Course - Tarquin Boat Company
You have yet again failed to respond to my lastest email as well as failing to respond the list emailed to you weekly since July 2006.
I now find that you have also removed the cutlery drawer from the galley - I assume to fix the chip placed in it when repairing the thrust brackets in the engine room.
Could you please send the repaired drawer back to me now - this will save it going onto the list of items being claimed by legal action. You also may choose to send the coffee table that you have even sent me photographs of but failed to deliver and even maybe the stereo speakers.
I have given up any hope of you having the decency to respond to my emails/letters. I suppose even this short one will also fall into your ignored box.
Paul Burgess
[/ QUOTE ]
Oen
New member
Paul,
I really feel for you.
For what it's worth, I had a long chat with a journo recently - without being aware of your position. I told him straight that in my experience, Traders are hopeless sea boats, poorly built, inadequately designed, and unsafe for passage making. Sorry if this is salt in your wounds, but folk need to know that these 'passage-making' boats may be wonderful for sitting in the marina sipping G&T, but suitable for long passages they are not. Some of the stuff I had to impart (concerning structural problems following only a moderately rough ride) is serious food for thought, especially to any owners who consider having their boats delivered anywhere by sea or to delivery crews who might be engaged to do it.
I really feel for you.
For what it's worth, I had a long chat with a journo recently - without being aware of your position. I told him straight that in my experience, Traders are hopeless sea boats, poorly built, inadequately designed, and unsafe for passage making. Sorry if this is salt in your wounds, but folk need to know that these 'passage-making' boats may be wonderful for sitting in the marina sipping G&T, but suitable for long passages they are not. Some of the stuff I had to impart (concerning structural problems following only a moderately rough ride) is serious food for thought, especially to any owners who consider having their boats delivered anywhere by sea or to delivery crews who might be engaged to do it.
Gludy
Active member
That intersts me greatly.
All I am after is the truth, so please do not hesitate to be open.
Upon what experience do you base that opinion?
Have you done a long passge on one?
What went wrong structurally?
All I am after is the truth, so please do not hesitate to be open.
Upon what experience do you base that opinion?
Have you done a long passge on one?
What went wrong structurally?
Gludy
Active member
Re: The Pressure Grows
I have had a surveyor contact me - he had sent the email below to Trader in the hope of trying to ensure that they respond to my problem list. It makes interesting reading and applied even more pressure to Trader.
I have published this so that everyone is aware of the mounting pressure on Trader to respond to my emails/letters.
[ QUOTE ]
Hello,
I have been following with rapt fascination a discussion on the YBW forum re a new Trader motor yacht bought from yourselves by one Paul Burgess for the best part (so I understand) of 1 million pounds.
Apparently he has had all sorts of problems with this vessel, which he says you are refusing to deal with - have a look at the latest posts in the discussion at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1223923/Main/1218297/#Post1223923
I am a marine surveyor in Barbados, and I am often asked to advise clients who are looking for boats to buy. If you can come up with plausible answers or remedies to all of the problems described by Mr Burgess in the above mentioned forum thread, I will happily recommend any new Trader vessel to a client, provided that :
I am of the opinion that the vessel is suitable for their requirements, and
That the vessel is subject to survey before final payments are made.
If you cannot come up with plausible answers to Mr. Burgess' allegations, please be assured that I will most definitely not be recommending your company (for what that is worth).
However I am sure that many other surveyors on the YBW forum are in agreement with me on this.
I think you should go public and answer Mr. Burgess' allegations on the Forum, otherwise you are going to lose an enormous amount of future business and good will.
I shall look forward to seeing a response from yourselves on the Forum, or via other media.
[/ QUOTE ]
So after that, it will be interesting to see if Trader wakes up and responds.
All I am seeking is that they answer each point on the problem list with either they agree and will fix now - they disagree and will not discuss - they wish to discuss. This way any legal action could either be avoided or at least contained to the points they disagree on. It is their totall lack of response to the problem list which is also backed up by expert reports from experts I have employed, that is so absurd.
I have had a surveyor contact me - he had sent the email below to Trader in the hope of trying to ensure that they respond to my problem list. It makes interesting reading and applied even more pressure to Trader.
I have published this so that everyone is aware of the mounting pressure on Trader to respond to my emails/letters.
[ QUOTE ]
Hello,
I have been following with rapt fascination a discussion on the YBW forum re a new Trader motor yacht bought from yourselves by one Paul Burgess for the best part (so I understand) of 1 million pounds.
Apparently he has had all sorts of problems with this vessel, which he says you are refusing to deal with - have a look at the latest posts in the discussion at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1223923/Main/1218297/#Post1223923
I am a marine surveyor in Barbados, and I am often asked to advise clients who are looking for boats to buy. If you can come up with plausible answers or remedies to all of the problems described by Mr Burgess in the above mentioned forum thread, I will happily recommend any new Trader vessel to a client, provided that :
I am of the opinion that the vessel is suitable for their requirements, and
That the vessel is subject to survey before final payments are made.
If you cannot come up with plausible answers to Mr. Burgess' allegations, please be assured that I will most definitely not be recommending your company (for what that is worth).
However I am sure that many other surveyors on the YBW forum are in agreement with me on this.
I think you should go public and answer Mr. Burgess' allegations on the Forum, otherwise you are going to lose an enormous amount of future business and good will.
I shall look forward to seeing a response from yourselves on the Forum, or via other media.
[/ QUOTE ]
So after that, it will be interesting to see if Trader wakes up and responds.
All I am seeking is that they answer each point on the problem list with either they agree and will fix now - they disagree and will not discuss - they wish to discuss. This way any legal action could either be avoided or at least contained to the points they disagree on. It is their totall lack of response to the problem list which is also backed up by expert reports from experts I have employed, that is so absurd.
PhilF
New member
I am sympathetic with whats happened
its a disgrace, but I do not believe that e mails such as the one above, or airing your grievences in public will help you in the slightest. You just give them amunition for misrepresentation, libel and slander. I would keep it quiet til its over - and good luck of course
its a disgrace, but I do not believe that e mails such as the one above, or airing your grievences in public will help you in the slightest. You just give them amunition for misrepresentation, libel and slander. I would keep it quiet til its over - and good luck of course
Gludy
Active member
Re: I am sympathetic with whats happened
it may well not help me but it will at least make public my problem so that others may learn from it. I wish I had been given this opportunity before I decided to deal with them.
I have been very careful in what I have said and all I have said is truthful and can be reasonably proven in court.
My base issue is that I am trying to get them to respond to my problem list after months of them simply not answering it. their refusal to even discuss the issues makes it impossible to do other than take legal proceedings. Once these start I shall be shutting up until it is all over.
You know they have taken something away from me - the joy of buying a new boat. Instead of joy I have had a nightmare and that nightmare has been greatly compounded by the incredibly poor behaviour.
it may well not help me but it will at least make public my problem so that others may learn from it. I wish I had been given this opportunity before I decided to deal with them.
I have been very careful in what I have said and all I have said is truthful and can be reasonably proven in court.
My base issue is that I am trying to get them to respond to my problem list after months of them simply not answering it. their refusal to even discuss the issues makes it impossible to do other than take legal proceedings. Once these start I shall be shutting up until it is all over.
You know they have taken something away from me - the joy of buying a new boat. Instead of joy I have had a nightmare and that nightmare has been greatly compounded by the incredibly poor behaviour.
