The most critical safety feature....

[AlexL]

Re: The most critical safety feature of any..

Agreed
... and by definition therefore the next most important piece of equipment is whatever the skipper decides he/she requires for that particular vessel / journey, for some it could indeed be the storm sails, for others a reliable engine, for other situations a good radar.

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[tome]

Re: The most critical safety feature of any..

Can't argue with this. In our case, we have a reliable engine and radar but storm canvas is our weak point.

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[shamrock]

Read extravert's post again and you'll see that he didn't mean the rudder! The 'nut' on the tiller is you, me and all the rest of us.

I agree with these two, complementary, views - the most important safety factor of a yacht is her ability to sail out of trouble. This means two vital things:

1) The boat is designed / equipped to sail or hold ground to windward in severe conditions

2) The skipper has the ability / experience / judgement to avoid having to do so in almost all circumstances, and then to set up and operate his boat effectively on the rare occasion that they do get into this predicament.





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[tome]

Oops, sorry Extravert - bit slow off the mark...

... and can't fault your summary, Shamrock

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[Mirelle]

but let\'s be honest about it

Andrew B says he has pulled off a lee shore in a sustained F9. I don't doubt this but would say that it is good going for a steel boat, with their inherently poor stability.

I am quite sure that Mirelle will not make to windward in more than a 7; the limiting factor here is the rig windage, but we will make a square drift in an 8 under reefed staysail only, which is really good enough for me.

The most important factor for me is probably watertight integrity.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[cliff]

Knowing where the spare corkscrew is kept!

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[AndrewB]

Re: but let\'s be honest about it

(OK, to be honest, it was pretty much a square drift. But as you say, good enough when we never less than 50 miles from land. Even hove-to under storm jib alone we didn't lose too much ground).

Probably it depends on the circumstances. I'm convinced it is easier to manage an ocean gale, where the waves are high but regular, than one in the Channel or North Sea, where the steep chop tends to knock all way off.

 

[Mirelle]

Agreed

Pitching into the same hole is always depressing, but if trying to clear a danger to leeward it is terrifying!

I also feel that a boat does better in dealing with long seas in deep water, certainly up to the point where the breaking crest becomes large. Which, fortunately for me, is beyond where my experience goes...

Your storm jib is probably about the same area as, and hoisted in the same place as, my close reefed staysail; she will lie-to quite well under that alone.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 08/06/2004 19:05 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Becky]

Re: Agreed

Reading the responses to this thread, I get the sense that all of you have an idea of how you would deal with clawing off a lee shore; and you all are talking in terms of how your own boat responds in these conditions. I knew how I would handle Solitaire in bad ( but not desperate) conditions, because I had tried various combinations of sail and engine, and evaluated the results. I just wish our new boat was ready and I could repeat the process. But I digress, the underlying conclusion is that you have your own methods developed from experiences that have happened in the past. Surely this is the best wayof getting out of a hole?

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[MainlySteam]

Re: but let\'s be honest about it

<<<a steel boat, with their inherently poor stability>>>

As an owner of a steel yacht I have to take issue with you - but perhaps you meant many have poor stability, not that poor stability was inherent, in which case I agree with you.

If you meant "inherent" then you must also include all the solidly built boats of other materials including frp as being inherently unstable as it is no problem building a steel yacht of similar displacement to them (but excluding very small vessels). All these constructions (excluding ferro cement, which does not count) if managed correctly are likely to be considerably lighter than a planked timber vessel would be.

I do not think the case of form stability has been mentioned and it is also possible to produce a yacht which has high initial stability from form and maintain the ability to drive into heavy seas/wind. Many traditional full bodied forms and modern ones with wide beam carried well forward may not be able to do so unless of long waterline length, but a beamy boat with fine forward sections will. Such a vessel with proper management of its sailplan will still be able to do so even if it is an "inherently unstable" one from a ballasting and VCG point of view.

I am not very familiar with Robert 38's (Andrew B's vessel), but what he claims is certainly possible in a steel yacht assuming steep and breaking seas from shoaling do not prevent that. We have never been in the situation of having to sail into a F9, but have motored directly into F8 through Cook Strait seas a number of times, helming in the manner described earlier by Jimi, and made up to 4-5 knots if seas allowed and have no doubt would have been able to sail it (if masochistic) or a F9 (there was a photo of one of the steel Challenge boats going to windward through Cook Strait in claimed F10 in YW Sept 2003 issue - trysail and storm jib).

John

{I do not wish to appear defensive of steel, I work with boats of various constructions and, excluding orphan materials such as ferro cement, have no particular allegiances}


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[Aeolus_IV]

Re: The most critical safety feature of any..

Have to agree that the skipper of the yacht is the main factor to my mind, the preparations that they should make before casting off are critical. For some this involves preparing storm jib and stay sail for extended passages, for others just the normal safety checks. The key element is that the skipper assesses the proposed trip and the risks it implies and undertakes the actions necessary to reduce the risks to acceptable levels. After that it seems that "in extemis" those that survive never give up and actively work towards their survival.

Jeff.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://users.swing.be/FDB/centurion/index2.html>Centurion 32 Web site</A>

 

[AndrewB]

Re: Agreed

Yes, one gathers a feel for a yacht's capability with ownership. I'm all for taking a yacht out in sheltered waters in a real blow, or for practicing various strategies in a F6, to help with this process. But developing a heavy weather strategy is not purely a matter of learning by experience. It is something the yacht, and its crew, must be prepared for. We have the benefit, through books like Heavy Weather Sailing, of learning from others experience, appreciating what it might be like and what range of strategies are available. When one is caught in really bad conditions, that is not a good time to be experimenting.

What's your new boat?

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[Becky]

Re: Agreed

My partner and I have just bought a Moody 37, with the intention of long-distance cruising. My ambition is to sail across the Atlantic, so we are slowly preparing the boat with this end in view. Makesthings a tad expensive though!
My children gave me Heavy Weather Sailing for Christmas, and every other book they could find on the Amazon web site referring to bad weather at sea.

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[dralex]

......is it's crew? Nothing's going to be any good at all if the crew don't have the experience. I'm sure there are people out there who could get into real trouble in the best equipped of boats.

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[dralex]

I really must read the whole discussion before replying and just repeating what has been said previously.

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[Mirelle]

Knowing what to do

There is no doubt in my mind that having read a good deal about what can be done in heavy weather, and having experimented in sheltered water in strong winds, made the whole experience quite simple, when I did first find myself "caught out" in my own boat; it really was a case of "Ah, now we have got to point "x", and I should now do "y"...gosh, it works....how reassuring!"

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Mirelle]

You are quite right

I expressed myself badly. What I should have written was "...good going for a steel yacht, many of which have relatively poor stability..." A great deal depends on size, of course. A wooden, or GRP, ship is impossible beyond a certain size, and very small steel boats tend to have poor stability due to unduly heavy scantlings, both because the corrosion margin does not change, and because nobody wants a boat that looks like a hungry horse.

I have in the past said that poor stability is the dark secret of many steel boats, and I stand by that!

The 30-40ft range seems to be the point at which you can make a yacht out of almost anything, though. Stel, wood, GRP, even ferro. There is a magnificent ferrocement replica of a half size Thames Barge, "Armadillo", which moors in Walton Backwaters and I would say she is proof that ferro was the right material in that apoplication...

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[starboard]

Re: You are quite right

Everyone should know thier own yachts capabilities and prepare and sail it accordingly...however after my years with the RNLI I still say the best piece of safety equipment has to be the VHF radio...when all else fails and things look grim at least you have the capabilities to advise someone of your situation!!


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[jimi]

Re: You are quite right

.. or when things are turning shitty you can advise position, course and ETA .. but remember to tell 'em that you've arrived safely!

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[AndrewB]

No probs, its always worth saying again.

PS You can delete a post if you really repent of it. For up to 1 hour after posting. View it, click on Edit, untick the 'Mark as Edited' box, then click on 'Delete this post'.

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