Sybarite
Well-known member
.... of a sailing boat is its ability to make to windward in heavy weather. Discuss..
John
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John
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The most critical safety feature....
- Thread starter Sybarite
- Start date
AndrewB
Well-known member
Er ... why? (nm)
nm
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nm
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Sunnyseeker
New member
But who goes to wind in heavy weather?
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AIDY
Active member
Gentlemen never beat to windward !
<hr width=100% size=1>/forums/images/icons/wink.gif <font color=blue> Regards Andy </font color=blue>
<hr width=100% size=1>/forums/images/icons/wink.gif <font color=blue> Regards Andy </font color=blue>
Talbot
Active member
most of the wooden warships in Nelson's day were unable to go to windward in any conditions!
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Sybarite
Well-known member
Re: Er ... why? (nm)
On the basis that the worst position that one can find oneself in is to be on a lee shore in heavy weather....
I'm talking about a boat's intrinsic sea worthiness - not, say, a collision situation in fog..
John
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On the basis that the worst position that one can find oneself in is to be on a lee shore in heavy weather....
I'm talking about a boat's intrinsic sea worthiness - not, say, a collision situation in fog..
John
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bedouin
Well-known member
As alternatives how about
- A rudder that doesn't fall off
- Ditto keel
- Bloody big anchor
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- A rudder that doesn't fall off
- Ditto keel
- Bloody big anchor
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tome
New member
I'll take up your challenge John, as it's a topical subject.
Nobody of sane disposition would choose a windward passage in heavy weather, but the possible need to escape a lee shore or obstruction warrants preparation of the boat and crew. I've given this some thought, and realised that my 150% furling genoa is next to useless for the task. My storm jib sets in the headsail foil, and I've already posted on the impossibility of changing down in a blow when short-handed. The only choice I have at the moment is to furl the headsail, but the pointing ability when deeply furled rapidly deteriorates.
I've just fitted a strong chainplate and deck plate to the bulkhead in the anchor locker, and next week the riggers will fit a removable inner forestay. Meantime, I set my storm jib last night onto the new fitting to check leads for sheets.
The storm jib is in my car ready to be dropped off at the sailmakers, where they will replace the foil luff with heavy duty hanks. This means that I can have it hanked-on and ready to hoist on the second genoa halyard, still in its bag and with sheets attached.
The other consideration is the hull form. Our boat has a long fin keel and good underwater section, yet will still slam going to windward in a heavy sea. I've had to do this, and can report that it is very tiring on the crew even if the boat can eqasily take the pounding.
I'm not going to look for heavy windward work with the new set up despite a significant investment, but it's peace of mind.
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Nobody of sane disposition would choose a windward passage in heavy weather, but the possible need to escape a lee shore or obstruction warrants preparation of the boat and crew. I've given this some thought, and realised that my 150% furling genoa is next to useless for the task. My storm jib sets in the headsail foil, and I've already posted on the impossibility of changing down in a blow when short-handed. The only choice I have at the moment is to furl the headsail, but the pointing ability when deeply furled rapidly deteriorates.
I've just fitted a strong chainplate and deck plate to the bulkhead in the anchor locker, and next week the riggers will fit a removable inner forestay. Meantime, I set my storm jib last night onto the new fitting to check leads for sheets.
The storm jib is in my car ready to be dropped off at the sailmakers, where they will replace the foil luff with heavy duty hanks. This means that I can have it hanked-on and ready to hoist on the second genoa halyard, still in its bag and with sheets attached.
The other consideration is the hull form. Our boat has a long fin keel and good underwater section, yet will still slam going to windward in a heavy sea. I've had to do this, and can report that it is very tiring on the crew even if the boat can eqasily take the pounding.
I'm not going to look for heavy windward work with the new set up despite a significant investment, but it's peace of mind.
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jimi
Well-known member
Agree, particularly as the sea state near a lee shore in heavy weather is liable to be confused. A heavy boat will be required with those of light displacement being at best stopped dead by heavy breaking waves.
Offshore in a F8/9 in an AWB we could only make 3 knots at best motorsailing directly into the wind and waves. however cracking off a few degrees gave us 5 to 6 knots on a fine reach but active helming was required. A beam reach in similar conditions gave fantastic fast sailing.
If I were going for an extended offshore trip I'd have the tri on a separate track, and a removeable inner forestay for the storm jib. This is my next project, or maybe the traveller is ...
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Offshore in a F8/9 in an AWB we could only make 3 knots at best motorsailing directly into the wind and waves. however cracking off a few degrees gave us 5 to 6 knots on a fine reach but active helming was required. A beam reach in similar conditions gave fantastic fast sailing.
If I were going for an extended offshore trip I'd have the tri on a separate track, and a removeable inner forestay for the storm jib. This is my next project, or maybe the traveller is ...
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Sybarite
Well-known member
I have a removeable inner forestay just behind the furling genoa so that I can use the bow chain plate. It goes to the mast head. I have only had to set it once in anger and I wouldn't like to have to do it in a hurry.
What I would like though, in addition to the storm jib, is a blade staysail ( the French call it a solent) for anticipated windward work in strong winds.
I know my boat will go to windward in a F8 because I have tried it, nipping out from the shelter of the Ile de Groix. However, whereas we had the odd breaking wave, it was not what you would have had closer to a shore. In which case a really good anchor is a last resort.... Once the anchor is down then that's it because there is no way you can raise it again and sail off.
John
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What I would like though, in addition to the storm jib, is a blade staysail ( the French call it a solent) for anticipated windward work in strong winds.
I know my boat will go to windward in a F8 because I have tried it, nipping out from the shelter of the Ile de Groix. However, whereas we had the odd breaking wave, it was not what you would have had closer to a shore. In which case a really good anchor is a last resort.... Once the anchor is down then that's it because there is no way you can raise it again and sail off.
John
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AndrewB
Well-known member
Re: Er ... why?
Well yes, but what I was hoping for was context. I see you've now supplied that in response to Tome.
My yacht is cutter rigged and can just about make ground to windward in a protracted F9 under storm jib alone on the baby stay, as I discovered under conditions I don't wish to repeat, embayed in the Gulf of Cadiz. So yes, it could be useful.
But the answer depends on what type of sailing you do, and where. Around the UK's shores, with its ever-eager lifeboat service, never mind getting yourself out of trouble, just be sure you can get someone else to. On that basis I'd rate reliable communications as top of the list.
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Well yes, but what I was hoping for was context. I see you've now supplied that in response to Tome.
My yacht is cutter rigged and can just about make ground to windward in a protracted F9 under storm jib alone on the baby stay, as I discovered under conditions I don't wish to repeat, embayed in the Gulf of Cadiz. So yes, it could be useful.
But the answer depends on what type of sailing you do, and where. Around the UK's shores, with its ever-eager lifeboat service, never mind getting yourself out of trouble, just be sure you can get someone else to. On that basis I'd rate reliable communications as top of the list.
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Sybarite
Well-known member
Re: Er ... why?
Sorry I've got to disagree. I feel that I must always be in a situation to help myself. It's only if all else fails eg dismasting, rope around the propellor and dodgy holding ground that you call the safety services - in which case I agree it is necessary to have good communications. However if you have dismasted and your aeriel is in the water and you are outside mobile phone range.....
Not wanting to be pessimistic but this is not an unrealistic situation.
John
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Sorry I've got to disagree. I feel that I must always be in a situation to help myself. It's only if all else fails eg dismasting, rope around the propellor and dodgy holding ground that you call the safety services - in which case I agree it is necessary to have good communications. However if you have dismasted and your aeriel is in the water and you are outside mobile phone range.....
Not wanting to be pessimistic but this is not an unrealistic situation.
John
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tome
New member
I think you need both, but the traveller gets a lot of excercise on our boat - far more than I hope the storm jib will!
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tome
New member
John
Mine is set back a few feet from the stem so won't interfere with the furling. I would hope to be able to set it up in good time, ready for the hoist. A foredeck in these conditions is a dangerous place to be.
Agree about the Solent, which I'll look into. If this is sheeted hard both sides so the clew is midships it can be used as a self-tacking sail - very handy if you're short of crew.
And I heartily agree with you that a means of summoning assistance is no substitute for active preparation.
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Mine is set back a few feet from the stem so won't interfere with the furling. I would hope to be able to set it up in good time, ready for the hoist. A foredeck in these conditions is a dangerous place to be.
Agree about the Solent, which I'll look into. If this is sheeted hard both sides so the clew is midships it can be used as a self-tacking sail - very handy if you're short of crew.
And I heartily agree with you that a means of summoning assistance is no substitute for active preparation.
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zefender
Active member
So maybe the engine is the most important safety feature? 
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AndrewB
Well-known member
Re: Er ... why?
I applaud your council of perfection but regrettably its too demanding for the typical coastal cruiser, even if in order for a blue water cruiser or ocean racer. The logic of your argument demands safety equipment to cope with every contingency: jury rudder, means of creating jury mast, heavy weather anchor, rigging capable of withstanding an inversion, hatch covers, cockpit drains to cope with pooping etc etc.
The fact is, as several current threads here illustrate, what 90% of coastal yachtsmen think of first in terms of safety is to be IN TOUCH. (100% among the Solent Radio Check brigade).
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I applaud your council of perfection but regrettably its too demanding for the typical coastal cruiser, even if in order for a blue water cruiser or ocean racer. The logic of your argument demands safety equipment to cope with every contingency: jury rudder, means of creating jury mast, heavy weather anchor, rigging capable of withstanding an inversion, hatch covers, cockpit drains to cope with pooping etc etc.
The fact is, as several current threads here illustrate, what 90% of coastal yachtsmen think of first in terms of safety is to be IN TOUCH. (100% among the Solent Radio Check brigade).
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extravert
New member
The most critical safety feature....
...on any small boat is the nut on the tiller. If you regularly read the MAIB's reports and safety digests, they don't often mention problems caused by sailing boats not being able to beat off a lee shore in a gale.
However, time and time again come up the same failures causing death, like overloaded boats, poor maintenance, lack of safety equipment, not using safety equipment properly, deliberately going out in inappropriate conditions etc. These incidents are not caused by poor design of the boat. They are caused by lack of experience, knowledge and training of the people using them.
On the causes of deaths at sea on pleasure boats, windward ability just doesn't come into it.
<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.
...on any small boat is the nut on the tiller. If you regularly read the MAIB's reports and safety digests, they don't often mention problems caused by sailing boats not being able to beat off a lee shore in a gale.
However, time and time again come up the same failures causing death, like overloaded boats, poor maintenance, lack of safety equipment, not using safety equipment properly, deliberately going out in inappropriate conditions etc. These incidents are not caused by poor design of the boat. They are caused by lack of experience, knowledge and training of the people using them.
On the causes of deaths at sea on pleasure boats, windward ability just doesn't come into it.
<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.
tome
New member
No, my engine won't take me off a lee shore in these conditions whereas a good storm jib might (perhaps in conjunction with engine). If that fails, it's the anchor and pray.
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tome
New member
You imply that rudder failure is a more common cause of failure. I inspected a rudder recently on a colleagues boat which had lost a pintle. We agreed that it was almost certainly caused by his reefing late, as he comes from a dinghy background and is relatively new to sailing larger boats.
A well snugged-down boat will be balanced without too much weather helm, and I wonder how many rudder failures are caused by carrying too much canvas?
I maintain that an obstacle to leeward is my biggest potential worry and from next week I'll hopefully be in a much better position to deal with it.
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A well snugged-down boat will be balanced without too much weather helm, and I wonder how many rudder failures are caused by carrying too much canvas?
I maintain that an obstacle to leeward is my biggest potential worry and from next week I'll hopefully be in a much better position to deal with it.
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ponapay
New member
The most critical safety feature of any..
vessel is the skipper or master. It is that person who takes ALL the critical decisions and ensures that the vessel is operated safely within its capabilities and in a manner that takes account of the prevailing conditions.
No other single item is anywhere near so important - that is why training makes good sense.
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vessel is the skipper or master. It is that person who takes ALL the critical decisions and ensures that the vessel is operated safely within its capabilities and in a manner that takes account of the prevailing conditions.
No other single item is anywhere near so important - that is why training makes good sense.
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