Starting out with Merchant Navy - Caledonian MacBrayne

[Matt 82]

Hello.

I've been lurking here for years but as I don't own a boat and likely never will which is why I've never posted. It's also taken me this long to realise I mis-spelled my username so a mod will hopefully sort that in time. I do however love boats, the sea and all that jazz and a recent trip to the island of Luing on the Scottish west coast got me thinking.

Both my girlfriend and I loved being up in that area of the country and wish to move there as we feel it'd be the perfect place to raise a family. However I'm 31 and unemployed so can't just pack up and go.

I looked up vacancies with Caledonian MacBrayne. Their employee set up seems ideal to me in that I don't have to head around the world for months on end, can live in a part of the world that we love and have plenty of time off to pursue interests and go on holidays etc. So ideally Caledonian MacBrayne is the company I'd like to work for. I am however starting from scratch as far as this career goes. I have no qualifications beyond high school.

This is where I get confused. I have no real idea of how to make this plan a reality or even how to get started. I booked an appointment with a careers advice person but she didn't really know specifics. I'm speaking to her again next week though so I'm hoping she can help me out a bit further.

Looking at Caledonian MacBrayne website, there are various positions offered at the moment. Some Officers and some Ratings. I understand the difference between the two. Each come with requirements for various sea going qualifications that I will presumably have to get at a college beforehand.

1) My issues are that looking at the Glasgow Nautical College website, I have the grades to start officer training. What I'm confused about is sponsorship. Do I have to get sponsored by someone before joining the college? And if that's the case would I need to spend a year or two with another company before applying with Caledonian MacBrayne?

2) There are more Ratings than Officers on board vessels, yes? If I do Officer training would I be limiting my job opportunities? Is it silly to even consider becoming a Rating when Officer training is an option? Obviously the pay is better but if I can't get in the door in the first place it's all a bit pointless.

3) The requirements for what I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an entry level position are: "a valid ENG1, a Navigational Watch Rating Certificate, Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification, AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification".

- The ENG1 is a health form that I would get from a doctor, yes?
- The Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification is something I can get from Glasgow Nautical College. However the college is asking for 6 months seagoing service in a deck capacity, valid medical certificate plus the four basic STCW 95 certificates. I'm not sure how I get these.
- AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification. I do not know what these are.


As you can see I'm very much a noob when it comes to all this so any info would be helpful. What it feels like is that I'm going in a loop. To get a job you need certificates but to get the certificates you need experience and other certificates. Could any of you shine a light on how to start from scratch. Thanks.

I also realise that my questions are very Caledonian MacBrayne-centric. At 31 and looking to start a family I have no real desire to sail around the world (I've been round it, anyway). I will however do it if it's necessary as I'm aware that this is going to be a long term plan.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

 

[Uricanejack]

Hello.

I've been lurking here for years but as I don't own a boat and likely never will which is why I've never posted. It's also taken me this long to realise I mis-spelled my username so a mod will hopefully sort that in time. I do however love boats, the sea and all that jazz and a recent trip to the island of Luing on the Scottish west coast got me thinking.

Both my girlfriend and I loved being up in that area of the country and wish to move there as we feel it'd be the perfect place to raise a family. However I'm 31 and unemployed so can't just pack up and go.

I looked up vacancies with Caledonian MacBrayne. Their employee set up seems ideal to me in that I don't have to head around the world for months on end, can live in a part of the world that we love and have plenty of time off to pursue interests and go on holidays etc. So ideally Caledonian MacBrayne is the company I'd like to work for. I am however starting from scratch as far as this career goes. I have no qualifications beyond high school.

This is where I get confused. I have no real idea of how to make this plan a reality or even how to get started. I booked an appointment with a careers advice person but she didn't really know specifics. I'm speaking to her again next week though so I'm hoping she can help me out a bit further.

Looking at Caledonian MacBrayne website, there are various positions offered at the moment. Some Officers and some Ratings. I understand the difference between the two. Each come with requirements for various sea going qualifications that I will presumably have to get at a college beforehand.

1) My issues are that looking at the Glasgow Nautical College website, I have the grades to start officer training. What I'm confused about is sponsorship. Do I have to get sponsored by someone before joining the college? And if that's the case would I need to spend a year or two with another company before applying with Caledonian MacBrayne?

2) There are more Ratings than Officers on board vessels, yes? If I do Officer training would I be limiting my job opportunities? Is it silly to even consider becoming a Rating when Officer training is an option? Obviously the pay is better but if I can't get in the door in the first place it's all a bit pointless.

3) The requirements for what I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an entry level position are: "a valid ENG1, a Navigational Watch Rating Certificate, Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification, AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification".

- The ENG1 is a health form that I would get from a doctor, yes?
- The Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification is something I can get from Glasgow Nautical College. However the college is asking for 6 months seagoing service in a deck capacity, valid medical certificate plus the four basic STCW 95 certificates. I'm not sure how I get these.
- AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification. I do not know what these are.


As you can see I'm very much a noob when it comes to all this so any info would be helpful. What it feels like is that I'm going in a loop. To get a job you need certificates but to get the certificates you need experience and other certificates. Could any of you shine a light on how to start from scratch. Thanks.

I also realise that my questions are very Caledonian MacBrayne-centric. At 31 and looking to start a family I have no real desire to sail around the world (I've been round it, anyway). I will however do it if it's necessary as I'm aware that this is going to be a long term plan.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

Look again at the GCNS site. If I recall correctly it is geared mainly to cadet and officer training.
Check out the other collages and look for an entry level training program for deck hand. EDH.
Efficient deck hand or bridge watch certificate. it used to be a six month program.
I don't know if Cal Mac would hire without expierience on deck they might.
They will hire with less expierience in catering.

 

[Matt 82]

Excellent. Thank you. Will look into EDH and Bridge Watch.

Yeah I think GCNS is exclusively officer. They replied to my email and said I would require sponsorship, which isn't ideal.

 

[7htas]

Going down the cadetship route would be your best bet!

Fire an application into Clyde Marine training! If you need any advice on the application process; I'll be happy to help.

I'm nearly 29- and I'm just under a year into my cadetship to become a deck officer.

It doesn't really matter who you train with- once you qualify; you'll be able to work where ever you like.

You would need to give up the next three years of your life though. It's a very challenging undertaking, but I'm hoping it's worth it.

Good luck

 

[Matt 82]

Thanks man. If that's the route I go I'll definitely take you up on that offer.

My biggest issue is really one of time, I suppose. A quicker route in would be preferable. What I'm trying to weigh up is that is it better to start at the bottom of the ladder and move up or to get qualifications and skip a whole load of rungs on the ladder. Is it even possible to do it that way?

 

[7htas]

If there was an easier way of becoming an officer; then I would have found it; as I'm a bit long in the tooth to be starting at the bottom. As a cadet; you will only need to complete 12 months sea time; 6 months bridge watchkeeping time.(accompanied by your Training Record book) If you want to do it yourself; you'll have to pay for all the courses; then you'll need to find a job as an O/S or A/B - easier said than done- they'd rather employ cheaper staff(foreign) which is a gross generalization- but a true one- there are however positions for British Crew- but they are few and far between. Then, you'd need a minimum of 36 months seatime- before you could apply for your NOE for your CoC. If you realistically estimate the time frames of the aforementioned; then you'd probably be better off going down the Cadetship route- but it's a big life changer. You will be away at college or sea for three years. There's a chance you'll end up with a company that has no interest in training you; and are simply opting for British cadets for the tonnage tax scheme.

Try calling Cal-Mac; and speaking to someone in HR; that's probably the best thing you can do.

 

[Matt 82]

Thanks again. Yeah a bit of research is more or less confirming that it'll be a course at Clyde Marine or something similar.

"You will be away at college or sea for three years. There's a chance you'll end up with a company that has no interest in training you"

When you say at 'sea for three years'; is that if I were to choose a different way in than Clyde Marine? Or do you just mean you do bits on land and bits at sea? And regarding the second part; do you mean as part of a work placement scheme while doing your course? Is that kind of thing common and can it be dealt with?

I emailed CalMac with some questions about how to get in. I'll call them when I get a reply to go into specifics.

Again,

Thanks.

 

[dharl]

Hello Matt,

welcome aboard and good luck!

First of all 31 is not too old to be looking at this, as one poster has put they started at 29 and I know someone who at 42 is becoming a cadet with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) after a career first of all in the RN and then ashore in the Police!

As well as Clyde Marine I would recommend looking at the Merchant Navy Training Board website. Lots of great information there but I will try and answer some of your questions below:-

++
1) My issues are that looking at the Glasgow Nautical College website, I have the grades to start officer training. What I'm confused about is sponsorship. Do I have to get sponsored by someone before joining the college? And if that's the case would I need to spend a year or two with another company before applying with Caledonian MacBrayne?

" Most UK Shipping companies can offer a cadetship program for you where they will sponsor you for your time and expenses at colleage as well as give you Sea Time. CalMac might be able to offer you this, best to phone and ask them if that is who you would really like to work for. Additionally worth calling them to see if you could get some work experience with them, see behind the scenes on a crossing or two to see if it is really something you would enjoy. "



2) There are more Ratings than Officers on board vessels, yes? If I do Officer training would I be limiting my job opportunities? Is it silly to even consider becoming a Rating when Officer training is an option? Obviously the pay is better but if I can't get in the door in the first place it's all a bit pointless.

" If you are offered training as an Officer Cadet then take it, it will give you more job opportunities, not less! As you start your training you will be taught all the rating roles and then more."


3) The requirements for what I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is an http://www.calmac.co.uk/corporate-ca...mac/seaman.htm are: "a valid ENG1, a Navigational Watch Rating Certificate, Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification, AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification".

- The ENG1 is a health form that I would get from a doctor, yes? " Only a MCA Approved Dr can issue those. cost about £90 a time"

- The Proficiency Survival Craft & Rescue Boat Certification is something I can get from Glasgow Nautical College. However the college is asking for 6 months seagoing service in a deck capacity, valid medical certificate plus the four basic STCW 95 certificates. I'm not sure how I get these. "As a cadet you will gain these as part of your training"

- AB Certification and all relevant STCW 95 Certification. I do not know what these are. " As a cadet you will gain a EDH certificate and the other STCW 95 Certificates. You can only gain an AB certificate after holding an ABs 'ticket' for 2 years sea time"



++

hope above is a little bit of help!

good luck and keep us posted of your progress

David

 

[7htas]

I mean, if you get in with Clyde Marine; for just over three years; you'll be committed to a cadetship.

It's broken into "phases" -
Phase one- College September to Feb
Phase two - Sea time March to Aug
Phase three- College September to March
Phase four- March to March
Phase five- March to...well it's all dependant on when you get to sit your exams(there's a few)

But that's a rough guide to a cadetship. It's what I'm doing anyway; I'm waiting to start phase three; which is college! The juicy stuff!

To get in with Cal Mac as an officer trainee, you would need to apply through Clyde Marine- I've just checked on their website. That will probably be what CalMacs response will be. If you decide to apply for Clyde; just make sure you choose ferry companies (there's quite a few) - You get three choices- they can't always allocate you to your 1st choice; but they do their best.

 

[Matt 82]

Right, I'm starting to see things a bit more clearly now so thanks for that, guys. One of the things confusing me was that I had my mother giving me second hand information from a friend, telling me that there were folk working on these ferries with only short course (eg health and safety stuff) qualifications. There probably are folk like that aboard but for one thing they won't be getting anywhere near the money I'm seeing advertised on CalMac's website.

So, as always, I have more questions/clearing up. You guys have been very helpful and I really appreciate it. I hope you don't mind me picking your brains some more.

1) Despite the impression I'm putting across, I'm quite an intelligent guy and love learning new skills/info. I didn't share that same enthusiasm when I was at School. So my highers are a distinctly unimpressive: three Cs. Now technically this does get me over the 120 UCAS points threshold that is required but it's hardly the kind of thing to inspire a company to sponsor me. This is why I was looking at different routes in, you see.

So, what's the difference between the HND and the Foundation Degree? This diagram that I got from MNTB seems to suggest that at the end of the day, you end up with the same OOW/EOOW qualification. Is the HND a different (maybe longer?) route to the same goal or will it be a case of having a "Degree OOW" vs an "HND OOW"?

2) Does the HND route still require the sponsorship? Is that still a Cadetship?

3) Sponsorship. I'm still not sure that I 'get it'. I see that Clyde Marine has a much larger list of potential sponsors than the 'Careers at Sea' website including CalMac. However I'm getting the chicken and the egg mixed up. To get in with CalMac, I need to apply through Clyde Marine but to get into Clyde Marine, I need to be sponsored. Is the sponsorship something that gets allocated to you once you get accepted to the Clyde Marine? When I contacted Glasgow Nautical College for info I was told "You should therefore apply direct to the companies and not to the College". Does Clyde Marine just have a different system or am I mixing things up again?

3) Sponsorship. What exactly does it entail? What I can see is a vague 'get paid as your learn!' blurb that I'm taking with a pinch of salt. Is the sponsor the company that you'd spend time with when you do you practical stuff on your course? And if you want to work elsewhere at the end of the training is it really as simple as saying, "I'm off" after they've spent money on you?


That's all I have just now. I have no doubt I'll think of more later.

Thanks.

 

[7htas]

1) If you meet the minimum requirements(gcses); which is on the CMT website; then just apply! If you don't; you'll need to go back to college. I wanted to join the Merchant Navy in 2007; but I lacked the qualifications; due to the fact that when I was in school; I didn't apply myself (I still managed to claw my way to university; doing a micky mouse degree) I weighed up all my options at the end of 2007; and decided I'd try for the RFA as a communications rating. After firstly completing the ECDL which was required; and having two interviews a year apart; and being unsuccessful- I'd wasted a lot of time. I should have just went back to college; and redone my GCSE's. I did the college thing in September 2011- and come September 2012; I was starting my cadetship- long winded; I know.


2) Hnd differs in it's structure from the degree. At the end of both courses; you still end up with the ticket be sail as a 3rd/2nd officer. The difference for the degree; is that if you wish to do anything shore based; you can top it up with something else and have a degree. Professionally, it differs; because you'll have done certain parts of the chief mates ticket (don't quote me, but doing the degree, means that when you go for your chief mates ticket, it shaves off 4 months of the time)

3) There's nothing to get. Okay...here goes...
Hypothetically.....You own a shipping company. You wish to add to your sea going staff. You see there's a tonnage tax scheme with the British government. So; you can recruit some "cadets" - and organise all their college training, forms to be filled in for the goverment smArt funding, getting registered for seamans books, inoculations, visa trips- blah blah blah...the list is endless...at the end of the "cadets" training- you potentially have a junior officer...that you can employ.

Clyde Marine; offer their shipping companies; a way of avoiding all of the above. They deal with all the paper work, and recruitment; and all the shipping companies have to do is give the cadet a minimum of 12 months sea time- etc CalMac. So you'll be looked after by CMT, and you'll go to sea with one of their companies. Some companies handle all that **** themselves - Maersk, Fishers, BP....they all have their own guidelines and entry requirements.

There are other shipping companies; which see training British Cadets merely as £££'s - and get management companies like CMT and SSTG to recruit for them. They offer births for cadets to get their seatime. They have no interest in employing you when you finish- but it's no problem, as there's plenty of companies looking for junior officers.

3) It's CMT doing all the paper work; and the shipping company putting up the money. (The company redeem the money; once you have finished your training, and some) - In some cases, you will sign a cadetship agreement; which states that you must work for the company for a set period; but out of all of my class; I think only one guy has this- the rest of us are on "thank you, and **** off" kind of deals- but like I said; it's not a problem- it's how it is. You'll be paid £780.00 whilst at college - and £480.00 whilst on your seaphase (you'll be at sea, getting fed, board, and watered though) You're not technically employed by anyone during a cadetship. If CMT offer you a cadetship; then you express a desire to work for CalMac; put them as your first choice. As you've got your heart set on CalMAc; you should put other similar companies as your 2nd and 3rd choices; so that when you do qualify; you'll have the right experience. A lot of the ferry companies, will also place you on a different type of vessel; maybe deep sea- which is good experience.

Hope that's cleared things up a little...

 

[dharl]

Good reply 7htas!

Would recommend talking to SSTG, however they are based in Kent! I did all my time and sailed with afterwards with James Fisher, a good company to work for but was doing 3 Months on 1 month off as a cadet, 2 Months on 1 off as a Jnr Officer (3rd and 2nd Mates) and was doing 6 weeks on 6 off as a Ch Mate.

Instead of CalMac an option would be to work on the offshore industry (Supply ships, DSVs, AHTS etc), interesting ships to work on and a couple of my friends at college where doing 4 weeks on 4 weeks off..however took longer to get the sea time in to pass the exam's!

 

[7htas]

The Fishers lot in our intake get worked to the metaphorical bone! Mind you; I wasn't far off that myself on my initial sea phase.

Problem with SSTG, is the age factor; I don't know of any cadets over 23 who've managed to get a cadetship out of them.

I am thinking, when I've got my ticket; of getting into the offshore industry.

The plan was, to qualify, work deep sea- and in my time off; **** about on a yacht in the Aegean. But after doing a 3 month trip; I'd feel more inclined to be working 6 weeks on, 6 off; if at all possible; and still do the yacht thing. It seems like bulk carriers; and british officers are quite a rarity.

I'm just trying, and failing to learn COLregs at the min. Qualifying seems like an eternity away!

 

[Matt 82]

Wow, 7htas that's some fantastic info. In fact it's so good that my earlier promise of follow questions is looking like a hollow one.

I do have one though. The £780 and £480. Is that per year, term, phase or for the full 3 year course? My girlfriend is understandably very concerned at me not earning much for 3 years.

 

[7htas]

That's what you take home monthly mate.

My Girlfriend dumped me when I went away to sea, the bitch! After 4 years of living together!

You'll have to move to one of the nautical colleges to do your phases 1, 3 and 5; and inbetween be away at sea.

Some ships have internet; others don't. Mine had very basic email; which took days to send/receive sometimes.

So you'll need to make her aware of all this before you embark on it. I did it with my missus til I was blue in the face; tried to reassure her- but she already had "trust issues" - and me being away made it worse. She was actually judging me by her low standards; as over the 4 years; she'd cheated on me a few teams. Anyway; that's all water under the bridge now.

I'm not the only one who's lost partners because of the career; and I doubt I'll be the last- some lads have dropped out and gone back to be with their GFs (some of the younger ones) and others are making things work.

It's a tough choice.

 

[Matt 82]

Sorry to hear that fella. Though it sounds like you might be better off now. Speaking with almost no knowledge of your situation of course.

I'm too ugly for my girlfriend to have trust issues! Not seeing her as much will definitely take a bit of getting used to. We spend almost all our time together.

Are the college phases all at the same college or would I be moving up and down the country? Secondly, do you find your own accommodation? And lastly; what are the hours like when you are on land? Monday to Friday?

 

[7htas]

I think I will be. Got another 'iron in the fire' - but ideally; I want to concentrate on my career.

Most colleges have similar set ups.

For phase one of college; my college insisted that you stayed in halls; to get you used to being in cabins. Not sure all of the colleges do that.

Then for the other phases; you get your own places; with other people; there's always landlord sharks trying to sell rooms; so there's no shortage.

College is monday to friday, 9-5; weekends off. You'll be at one of the colleges for the duration of your cadetship.

When you're at sea; it's down to your company, but you'll more than likely be living on the ship.

Out of interest; is it the deck side of things you want to do?

 

[Matt 82]

Ok that all sounds good. A lot to think about though. As you're aware it's a big commitment but with hopefully big rewards. I can tell whenever I mention it to my girlfriend that she's not keen on the idea. Thing is, I should've gone to Uni or done this years ago, but I didn't. No matter what I try to do, it's going to take time. There's certainly nothing I could do tomorrow that'd pay the same wages as advertised by CalMac.

Do you get a say in which college you go to or do they choose for you based on your choice of sponsor?

It would be deck, yeah. I'm certainly no engineer. If nothing else you want to be up where you can see where you're going, right?

 

[7htas]

Of course!

I think Clyde Marine don't mind which college you go to.

Other companies will make you go to the furthest away from your home to "get you used to it" - which is bull **** for someone who's been around the block.

 

[Matt 82]

Hmm. Given that ferry work isn't really about long haul voyages, I wonder if they'd take that kind of thing into account. Like you say though, it'd be more of a pain in the neck than a learning experience for me.

Can I ask who your sponsor is? What is it you plan to do long term?