Brit buying a natante sailboat in Italy and sailing to Greece. Greek Flag registration? VAT? Insurance? Buying process in Italy?

[garen]

I'm a complete newbie to this forum and to sailboat ownership, so - Howdy All!!! Hope you're all having a great day!

I'm a British citizen, and I spend a lot of time in Greece (but no residence permit in Greece). I have skipper certification in Greece and crewed a lot. I want to buy a small sailboat that is only 9m (30') in Italy and sail her to Greece where she will be permanently moored (it will be good for island-hopping and coastal cruising). In italy boats below 10m don't have to register, so this sailboat is considered as "natante" (like a bycicle) and does not have a flag or registration. It does not have CE certificate, only its outboard has a CE certificate. And I doubt it has a VAT certificate (I assume). And I doubt it has a valid insurance (it's just a small hobby racer that has been on the ground for 2 years). I'm planning to fly to Italy soon, to see the boat and will most likely buy it; and will stay in the boatyard for couple of weeks to prepare her for the voyage to Greece. And so I have a few questions:

1) What are my options in terms of Flag registration?
* British Red Ensign - I could register her with Part 3 since I live mostly in London, for just £35, but from what I understand I would need to hire an Authorised Surveyor, pay for vessel weighing - all very costly; And in addition, in Greece I would have to obtain a Travel Log (80 euros every 18 months) and sail her to International Waters at least once in 18 months -- too much hussle and costly.
* Italian flag - I don't think I can obtain it, cause I'm not Italian citizen.
* Malta and Switzerland - These flags look aesthetically nicest, but I would need to set up and maintain a company for that - presumably, quite costly!
* Greek Flag - This seems far more practical for the purposes of keeping it in Greece (no need for Transit Log hussle and fees, or sailing it into International Waters every 18 months). But here are the questions:
1a) Can a British person apply for a Greek Flag??? (If not, I could register under my Mom's name - she's Greek national living in Greece, but then what happens in case of her passing on?)
1b) How much does the actual Greek registration cost online? (I understand that I have to renew it every 5 years)
1c) Which papers are required for Greek registration?
1d) If the VAT certificate is absent, do I need to pay the VAT on the second-hand price at which I buy it, or the original price at the time of manufacture? (the thing is, it is a custom boat built in 2007 for racing).
1e) Would I have to pay VAT on it to UK if I ever sail her to Britain under Greek flag in the future?



2) What is the actual step-by-step buying process in Italy??? Do I need to find a Surveyor and a Lawyer in Italy? or is there a simplified procedure? Is there a "Bill Of Sale", or a "Certificate of Ownership"?

3) At which stage do I apply for insurance? After the sale, or before the sale? And does it matter which country the insurer is in? Do I need to obtain the Insurance before entering Greek waters?

4) At which stage do I apply for Flag Registration? before the sale or after the sale? Do I need to obtain the Flag before entering Greek waters?

I know, many questions. I've read through this forum a lot over the past week, but didn't find real answers. So, any help, advice, pointers - would be greatly appreciated.

PS: glad to have joined this forum (my first sailing forum) - I'm one step closer to realising my dream! Many thanks in advance!!!

 

[Tranona]

The boat will be considered EU VAT paid so in theory you can use it anywhere in the EU. Its VAT status does not depend on either your citizenship/residence nor its flag of registry. As you are a UK resident you can register it on Part 3 - no need for any measurement or inspection of the boat. While this is all "legal" under EU rules, be aware that Greece in particular has difficulty in accepting the distinction between flag of registry and VAT status and it would be better to have evidence of VAT payment in Italy to show that it is an EU boat. You will also need the Bill of Sale to confirm you bought it in Italy and that you own the boat. Unlikely you will have to pay VAT in Greece as it is an EU boat. VAT is only payable if a boat is imported from outside the EU. Likewise, in the unlikely event you ever try to sail it to the UK you will definitely have to pay VAT to import it here if you are still a UK resident.

As to process, can't help much but I would guess as it is not registered in Italy you just pay the owner and get a signed Bill of Sale. You can register the boat on line as soon as you have the Bill of Sale and arrange insurance in advance to take effect when you get title to the boat.

BTW there is no need to sail it out of Greece every 18 months. That only applies to non EU boats.

Hope this helps

 

[garen]

Hi Tranona, thanks for the response! I actually asked a Greek coast guard in person a month ago, to see which flag would suit my case better. He said a vessel with Red Ensign (even if EU VAT is paid) will need a Travel Log every 18 months (each such travel log is 80 euros), and will need to travel to international waters every 18 months and back, which is 6nm off coast, although this might soon become 12nm, which would mean sailing past Spetses island (see map), although it was kinda weird the way he said it:
"What kind of proof would you require that I reached international waters?"
"Eh, no proof needed".
It's Greece -- take it as you will. And I might not be in the country just to run that silly ritual of checking out of the marina, sailing for a day and returning the next day. (I should've asked about the Greek flag, but did think of it at the time, thinking that I'm limited to Red Ensign and the Italian flag only.) Plus the whole fun of island hopping in Greece is getting complicated with the Red Ensign - one literally has to check-out and check-in at every marina (and not all marinas have a coast guard officer on site, sometimes you need to travel to nearby village to find a police station).
So I'd rather sail under the local Greek flag - less hussle. But the question is can a Brit apply for a Greek flag? and, how much does a Greek registration cost?

When you say "The boat will be considered EU VAT paid" , -- on the basis of what??? Does that mean that I have to obtain manufacturer's certificate that it was made in Italy? (as I said, it was a local boatyard custom one-of-a-kind production for racing - it was not a serial production)

 

[Tranona]

Hi Tranona, thanks for the response! I actually asked a Greek coast guard in person a month ago, to see which flag would suit my case better. He said a vessel with Red Ensign (even if EU VAT is paid) will need a Travel Log every 18 months (each such travel log is 80 euros), and will need to travel to international waters every 18 months and back, which is 6nm off coast, although this might soon become 12nm, which would mean sailing past Spetses island (see map), although it was kinda weird the way he said it:
"What kind of proof would you require that I reached international waters?"
"Eh, no proof needed".
It's Greece -- take it as you will. And I might not be in the country just to run that silly ritual of checking out of the marina, sailing for a day and returning the next day. (I should've asked about the Greek flag, but did think of it at the time, thinking that I'm limited to Red Ensign and the Italian flag only.) Plus the whole fun of island hopping in Greece is getting complicated with the Red Ensign - one literally has to check-out and check-in at every marina (and not all marinas have a coast guard officer on site, sometimes you need to travel to nearby village to find a police station).
So I'd rather sail under the local Greek flag - less hussle. But the question is can a Brit apply for a Greek flag? and, how much does a Greek registration cost?

When you say "The boat will be considered EU VAT paid" , -- on the basis of what??? Does that mean that I have to obtain manufacturer's certificate that it was made in Italy? (as I said, it was a local boatyard custom one-of-a-kind production for racing - it was not a serial production)

Deal with VAT first. Hopefully the seller will have some evidence that VAT was paid, although the fact that it has been in Italy for a long time and you are buying from a private citizen no VAT is payable when you buy it. Under EU VAT law responsibility for dealing with any VAT issues lies with the state where the sale takes place. The rights to movement of the boat around the EU is determined by its status as "EU goods" that have free circulation and is independent of ownership or flag of registration. When you get to Greece you will have your evidence that you bought the boat in Italy.

Moving now to Greece and the transit Log. This is Greek legislation for the control of movements of ships and the determination of ships it applies to is flag state. This is of course in conflict with free movement of EU goods and has become a big issue for many UK boaters who keep their boats in Greece. I suggest you look at this thread and particularly the last post from Chris Robb. forums.ybw.com/threads/greece-marina-fees-general-fees-in-the-med.592209/ For many years Chris was the liaison between The Cruising Association and the Greek authorities helping to get them to apply EU law correctly. So it may not be an issue in the future. I suggest you also join the CA and take advantage of their knowledge about Greece.

The problem with registering on other flags is that they almost all have restrictions - residence, citizenship, surveys, skipper licencing requirements or high cost. When I had my boat in Greece, originally Greek registered as a charter boat, I could not register it under my own name when I stopped chartering so put it on the SSR. Of course it is Brexit that has "created" the new problems, which really are not problems if EU law is applied correctly. For non EU VAT paid boats the TA scheme works well as in Greece they "stop the clock" when the boat is not being used and in reality the checking in and out with the transit log is not rigorously enforced.

My concern in your situation is about the way you describe the boat. In general most EU states and particularly Italy are hot on documentation, registration etc, so although tedious it usually means that you get good provenance with a boat. In your shoes I would be looking at buying a boat in Greece (so you don't have to worry about "importing" through customs, registering on the SSR and just using it.

 

[garen]

Thanks for the elaborate reply, Tranona, and useful pointers! the CA website sure looks something to sink one's teeth into - what a resource - Cheers for that!
* I've read that post you linked before starting this thread. Now I read it again with closer attention to Chris_Robb's post: yeap, typical Greece - that's why I don't want to deal with Transit Logs and all that - each Limanarchos in each port thinks that it's his little kingdom and makes up rules as he pleases.
* I've been scraping the Greek market and other markets for many years - there are no boats like this - it's unique.
* So here are my next steps:
1) Start the conversation with the seller about proof of VAT, Builder's certificate (that it was indeed made in Italy), engine CE certificate (basically the papers that would be required for Greek flag or even SSR Red Duster). Seller doesn't speak English, so I'm yet to find an Italian translator.
2) Find an insurer in Greece and get an insurance quote and conditions (maybe Survey by authorised surveyor? etc).
3) Fly out for initial viewing of the boat and trial sail. I have only 12 days remaining from Schenanigen 90/180 (so, no way I can make the purchase, make it seaworthy and sail her to Greece in that short time)
4) Fly back to UK and start electronics purchases and making arrangements for boat improvements for when I purchase her.
5) Come June I'll have 90 days replenished. Fly out to Italy, purchase the boat, get Bill Of Sale.
6) Make improvements on the boat, change running rigging, electronics - basically make her seaworthy and insurable.
7) Get insurance from Greek insurer, while in Italy. Obtain digital copy.
8) Apply online for Greek Flag under my Mom's name (if it can't be under my name as a Brit). Have myself and couple of Greek friends written in as crew (not sure what's this for). Obtain temporary registration and have a digital copy with me in Italy (enough to set sail and enter Greek waters under Greek flag).
9) Coastal cruise 900nm to Athens.
10) Have a nice summer.

Is this is a correct action plan?