Stalling through a tack

[Neil]

A couple of months ago I posted a query on techniques to avoid stalling In Irons, while executing a tack. Several useful suggestions were put forward, such as not putting the rudder hard and full over, which would slow the boat too much through the turn.

While I fancy this had a beneficial effect, I still had an irritating experience one afternoon; every time I tried to turn through the wind, I would stall and be blown back to the original course. I tried bearing away first and then turning into the wind gently and progressively, all to no avail.

A telephone call to the boat builder had him somewhat perplexed as to the cause. He did say that he had had a one or two customers with the same concerns, but in each case it was because they were holding the main sheet in tight. This wasn't my case, but surely if the jib is loose, any wind on a tight main will give it weather helm and push it towards the wind?

One problem, in this particular instance, was that even on a broad reach, I guessed I was only doing about 2-3 knots (Note to self - switch on GPS!). Turning from the starboard tack presented no problems. Perhaps there was too much tidal current going the other way, although the Tidal Stream Atlas doesn't indicate anything above 1.5 knots. Having said that, I know local tidal streams may be different on the micro rather than on the macro scale.

However, under such conditions I would be forced to either put the engine on or turn tail and gybe round to the other tack - neither of which is cricket, really

The builder also felt that single-handing, with both myself and the outboard at the back, might be lifting the bows too much into the wind - he suggested to ballast the front; I now have 54 kg of extra lead in the fore-locker. We'll see if this works.

 

[Seajet]

While I and a great many others could probably help, first we need to know the boat type and very roughly your 'dimensions' please !

Also a sailing school is not an insult to suggest, it's how most great sailors start.

 

[dt4134]

I was going to ask boat type too. Your avatar is a gaffer, so am I right in guessing that what you have.

In the meantime, a few suggestions.

Make sure you have enough speed before the tack. Make sure you're not pinching.

Next try just heaving to. That'll prove you can get the bow through the wind without touching a sheet.

Providing your main isn't over-sheeted (& stalling) when close-hauled tugging it in for the tack should help not hinder.

Trim is very important but I'm not sure how the ballast is supposed to help with the tacking itself. Are there other problems with the boat? Lee helm? Excessive weather helm?

Tide is irrelevent. It'll affect the wind you feel a little but otherwise you're moving with the water so it doesn't influence you when you tack.

 

[Lakesailor]

I'm sure it was suggested in the original thread, but have you tried backing the headsail?
I had a boat which was a bit of a slug and it was the only way I could get it to tack in light airs.

 

[Seajet]

Please take a sailing course, practical.

It's fun and you will meet like minded people; the alternative is meeting the RNLI, I'd go for the course; where are are you? I used to instruct dinghies and cruisers, could do it informally if you happen to be near Chchester.

 

[Neil]

Sorry, I should have said that it is a long keeled open gaff-rigged day sailer, 17.5 feet long, about 750kg in weight without engine.

I should also say that I've had lessons in dinghies off an on over the years, this is my second season with this boat, and I have DS theory and Practical. My current boat falls somewhere between a dinghy and a heavier keel boat.

Backing the jib doesn't seem to make it any easier. The point I was making about the tidal stream was that if I'm against the current, and only doing 2-3 knots in a F3, I don't have enough speed, even on a reach, to get through the turn and the wind is strong enough to blow me off at the bows.

I'm hoping that the extra ballast keeps the bows down to catch less wind, and the extra mass gives greater momentum through the turn.

 

[dt4134]

The point I was making about the tidal stream was that if I'm against the current, and only doing 2-3 knots in a F3, I don't have enough speed, even on a reach, to get through the turn and the wind is strong enough to blow me off at the bows.

You don't have to go faster than the tide to tack so it is irrelevent. (Obviously it has other influences but it would take a while to go into the detail of those, but for the purpose of getting from starboard tack onto port tack and vice versa forget about the tide).

I'm hoping that the extra ballast keeps the bows down to catch less wind, and the extra mass gives greater momentum through the turn.

I don't know what to say. Extra weight has all sorts of effects on trim, pitching, etc. etc. so there has to be a lot of thought (and calculation) involved in placing ballast. Weight in the ends will make it a bit harder to turn.

Maybe getting an instructor on board would be a good move.

 

[Seajet]

Despite what some think, being against the current should make it easier !

Time to look at rig & trim ( ie are you sitting right by the transom ? ) otherwise you might be into raking the rig forward or having a serious 'chat' with the saleseman / builder - both in keeping with 'traditional practices ' !

 

[Neil]

You don't have to go faster than the tide to tack so it is irrelevent. (Obviously it has other influences but it would take a while to go into the detail of those, but for the purpose of getting from starboard tack onto port tack and vice versa forget about the tide).

Your explanation leaves me puzzled. If, say, I'm sailing against a 5kt current, then my SOG will be effectively zero. The wind speed is unaffected, it will exert the same force on the bows. There will still be plenty of water going over the rudder but I won't have any forward momentum to take me through the turn.

 

[Pye_End]

The boat's tacking is all about speed through the water, and sail balance v's center of gravity/buoyancy. It has very little to do with speed over the land. The momentum you refer to is only relevant in thinking about it as through the water.

To get the best out of the turning speed do not push the helm all the way over too quickly. It is possible to stall the rudder reducing the turning speed, and hence increasing the chance of losing way at the critical bit.

Being in irons in an older boat may not be completely able to be eliminated. If you are tacking from a reach then try coming up to the wind, and sheet the sails for close hauled and then put her through the tack. In very light winds it is possible not to have boat spped to get through the tack, and equally in strong winds, particularyl in choppy conditions, it may also be a problem. With lighter winds then saill trip is important - ie leave some shape in the sail. In bad weather it may be that you have to 'go round the other way'.

Weight distribution also has an effect on the tack as you have already discussed. If you dinghy sail with a crew this can be quite pronounced.

 

[ProDave]

However, under such conditions I would be forced to either put the engine on or turn tail and gybe round to the other tack - neither of which is cricket, really

If you get stuck in irons, you definitely don't need to start the motor to get out of it.

Put the tiller hard over the opposite direction, and as the wind on the nose starts to push you backwards, the reverse tiller will turn you where you want to go. It also helps to push the boom out a little in the opposite direction to the tiller. As soon as the boat turns, you should be able to continue sailing on the tack you were trying to get to.

While we are only novices, having only been out on our boat a few times, on our first time out we just pottered about close to the harbour practising sailing on the different points, tacking and gybing, and getting ourselves out of irons was also something we practised, and this worked for us.

 

[dt4134]

Your explanation leaves me puzzled. If, say, I'm sailing against a 5kt current, then my SOG will be effectively zero. The wind speed is unaffected, it will exert the same force on the bows. There will still be plenty of water going over the rudder but I won't have any forward momentum to take me through the turn.

The frame of reference that is important for this is the water not the land. SOG (Speed Over Ground) is your speed with respect to the land and is important for navigational purposes but not for this.

If you're sailing at five knots against a five knot current you do have momentum in that frame of reference. If you hit a stationary log that was drifting with the current there would be an impact. However you could sail up to a quay and tie up gently because there is very little movement with respect to the land.

There will be an effect on the wind. If there is 10 knots of true wind (As felt be an observer on the shore) but 5 knots of current with the wind the water surface would only feel five knots of wind, however with the boat moving too at five knots it would feel like ten knots to you (I'm avoiding the complication of the wind and various moving bodies moving in different directions, although obviously you can't sail directly into the wind). Another effect is that wind over tide would make the water choppier which would slow you down, but we'll ignore that effect too.

Even if you are only sailing at two knots against five knots of current you should be able to tack, even though you're going backwards against the land.

The reason I suggested an instructor earlier is that it is hard to visualise what the issue is and unlikely to be practical to have a look myself. Maybe it is a fault with the boat or maybe it is just technique.

 

[Pye_End]

Put the tiller hard over the opposite direction, and as the wind on the nose starts to push you backwards, the reverse tiller will turn you where you want to go. It also helps to push the boom out a little in the opposite direction to the tiller.

Might work on a modern boat, but long keelers need speed and loads of time to steer in reverse, if they steer at all.

 

[ProDave]

Might work on a modern boat, but long keelers need speed and loads of time to steer in reverse, if they steer at all.

I said I'm a novice. It's in several "how to sail" books, and it works on my 18ft lifting keeler.

I don't think I would describe my 1983 boat as "modern"

 

[Neil]

The boat's tacking is all about speed through the water, and sail balance v's center of gravity/buoyancy. It has very little to do with speed over the land. The momentum you refer to is only relevant in thinking about it as through the water.

To get the best out of the turning speed do not push the helm all the way over too quickly. It is possible to stall the rudder reducing the turning speed, and hence increasing the chance of losing way at the critical bit.

Being in irons in an older boat may not be completely able to be eliminated. If you are tacking from a reach then try coming up to the wind, and sheet the sails for close hauled and then put her through the tack. In very light winds it is possible not to have boat spped to get through the tack, and equally in strong winds, particularyl in choppy conditions, it may also be a problem. With lighter winds then saill trip is important - ie leave some shape in the sail. In bad weather it may be that you have to 'go round the other way'.

Weight distribution also has an effect on the tack as you have already discussed. If you dinghy sail with a crew this can be quite pronounced.

Thanks! This difficulty only manifests itself rarely, which is why I find it difficult to pin down the cause, and therefore effect a cure. I only usually have this problem in stronger winds, and especially against a chop.

 

[ianat182]

Whilst you are not a novice to sailing it may be that you are not using a tacking technique that suits a keeled yacht, and particularly a longkeeled one. As a former dinghy sailor/trainer the basic error that many new helms make is to have the main in a reaching attitude/angle prior to the tack, rather than sheeted in. What happens then is that the sail is head to wind long before the centreline of the boat is, and the boat loses its tacking speed to carry it through the eye of the wind, so that stalls, and often goes backwards, in irons, or bears away on the original tack until it can get a flow back over the main and jib.
Whilst the strongish adverse current may seem to be the culprit, it just may be the technique is flawed.
Similar boats to yours, I'm thinking , say a Memory, gaff -rigged, do rather well in very light airs, and weight distribution is significant in these too. Perhaps your weight addition may change this problem; if you remember, you had to bring your weight forward in dinghies to go to windward, maybe it will do the trick!

ianat182

 

[johnalison]

It's a long time since I sailed a heavy gaffer, so I'm certainly not going to pretend I know your boat better than you. I may be wrong but I don't think anyone has mentioned the jib/foresail in all this. Most boats will respond better if the foresail is not released until it loses wind. Turning into the wind frees the jib and it can be kept almost until head to wind, during which time it is providing extra drive. Releasing the jib early leaves it to flap which greatly increases the windage forward and may be part of the reason why you stall.

 

[Neil]

Whilst you are not a novice to sailing it may be that you are not using a tacking technique that suits a keeled yacht, and particularly a longkeeled one.
ianat182

Well, I would still consider myself nearer to a novice - I have no illusions that my Day Skipper practical has turned me into a master mariner!

As a former dinghy sailor/trainer the basic error that many new helms make is to have the main in a reaching attitude/angle prior to the tack, rather than sheeted in. What happens then is that the sail is head to wind long before the centreline of the boat is, and the boat loses its tacking speed to carry it through the eye of the wind, so that stalls, and often goes backwards, in irons, or bears away on the original tack until it can get a flow back over the main and jib.

ianat182

This might be getting nearer to the mark, I can visualise the problem. I would often bear away a little to build up speed before the turn, but I would probably have the mainsheet let out as a consequence. Then making the tack, I would probably leave the sheet as is. So, perhaps I should start to sheet in as I start to turn into the wind

Similar boats to yours, I'm thinking , say a Memory, gaff -rigged, do rather well in very light airs, and weight distribution is significant in these too. Perhaps your weight addition may change this problem; if you remember, you had to bring your weight forward in dinghies to go to windward, maybe it will do the trick!

ianat182

This was the opinion of the boat builder so I'll give it a go!

 

[alant]

A couple of months ago I posted a query on techniques to avoid stalling In Irons, while executing a tack. Several useful suggestions were put forward, such as not putting the rudder hard and full over, which would slow the boat too much through the turn.

While I fancy this had a beneficial effect, I still had an irritating experience one afternoon; every time I tried to turn through the wind, I would stall and be blown back to the original course. I tried bearing away first and then turning into the wind gently and progressively, all to no avail.

A telephone call to the boat builder had him somewhat perplexed as to the cause. He did say that he had had a one or two customers with the same concerns, but in each case it was because they were holding the main sheet in tight. This wasn't my case, but surely if the jib is loose, any wind on a tight main will give it weather helm and push it towards the wind?

One problem, in this particular instance, was that even on a broad reach, I guessed I was only doing about 2-3 knots (Note to self - switch on GPS!). Turning from the starboard tack presented no problems. Perhaps there was too much tidal current going the other way, although the Tidal Stream Atlas doesn't indicate anything above 1.5 knots. Having said that, I know local tidal streams may be different on the micro rather than on the macro scale.

However, under such conditions I would be forced to either put the engine on or turn tail and gybe round to the other tack - neither of which is cricket, really

The builder also felt that single-handing, with both myself and the outboard at the back, might be lifting the bows too much into the wind - he suggested to ballast the front; I now have 54 kg of extra lead in the fore-locker. We'll see if this works.

It must be sailed around.

Presume you have correct balance of sails between foresails & mainsail.
If you have too much main, you will have more weatherhelm, preventing the tack.
Also, Check mast rake.

Otherwise, much has already been stated.
(1) Just before your intended tack, bear away to speed up.
(2) When that is achieved, put tiller over (helm to the lee) & only when bows are through the wind should you release foresail sheets (lee-ho), using wind on backed foresail to push you through. When on opposite tack, resheet foresails on leeside.
(3) Mainsheet should be left alone during this manouvre.

 

[fergie_mac66]

mainsheet

slacken the mainsheet off or better still the traveller by a few inches as you put the helm down.. it does work on most ..

edit: if the main is in hard on at the point when it goes throgh the wind it pushes the boat back on the old tack before you have the chance to re sheeted the jib on the new tack