Stalling through a tack

[Lakesailor]

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone has mentioned the jib/foresail in all this.

Me. Me.

However it seems he's tried that and it hasn't helped.
My guess is that if it's a heavy, long-keeled boat it's using up it's momentum before it's got it's bow across the wind.
More momentum required. Perhaps a mainsheet traveller to pull the boom to windward as the boat turned would keep it driving for longer. A lot of faff though.

 

[boguing]

Coming in rather late to this. Adding weight to a proven design is nonsense.

A long time ago I had been racing larger keelboats successfully, but I'd always noticed that I occasionally lost more than the normal amount of speed during a tack. I was then lucky enough to be able to use a 27 and 33 that had self tacking jibs, single handed on warm summer evenings.

So i took myself off and practised for many hours.

The outcome was that:-

Never push the helm down. Let the weather helm do it for you. As you get better, maybe resist that a little.

Don't let the tiller go more than twenty degrees.

At this point, the jib should be flapping.

Centre the tiller and let the momentum continue the turn.

Tack the jib the moment that you are sure that the tack has worked.

Practise practise practise. Go out in a F3 or 4 with just the main up.

I've never sailed a keelboat that needed to bear away before a tack. Sail trim is wrong if that works.

Ignore tide. As already said by many, this has no effect on your problem.

 

[Neil]

Well, we seem to have two schools of thought here, with one advocating leaving the main out and loose, and the other sheeting in.

I can visualise the boat turning into the wind to the point where the main is square to the wind. If the main wasn't free, then it would prevent the boat turning any further. However even a gaffed main, heavier than a Bermudan main, should swing round with sufficient ease - or is there sufficient inertia to it to have a significant effect? That can't be right

On the other hand I do see that if the main is sheeted in, once through the turn, the main will tend to push it back.

However in my extreme case, I never even get near to being head to wind.

As to the foresail, on that singularly irritating instance during the summer, I couldn't even get the bows round enough to back the foresail.

 

[Pye_End]

I think that the suggestion to free off the main and heading a little is to maximise boat speed before the tack. Don't think you are looking at big movements to do this.

Also, think as the sail plan as acting on a pivot - the pivot being the centre of gravity. If you have lots of sail plan aft it will give the boat a natural tendancy to round up. When sailing you obviously want this as being reasonably neutral as otherwise you need to helm in order to stay in s straight line, but on the tack you want all the help you can from an aft sail plan. Keeping some weight forward also helps as it moves the pivot forward. Choice of sail plan, and what is reefed also has an effect. If you have a bow sprit you may also have a sail further forward than most. It may also be that mast rake will help?

It is possible that the issue cannot be completely eliminated, although I am sure you are right to try to minimise it.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Since sailing a boat with a fully battened main I have found a whole new way to get completely stuck in irons. It is possible through incompetence to get every batten up the sail into an 'S' shape, so that the whole mainsail does booger all wherever you put it. Combine this with stopping directly into the wind so that the headsail can't be persuaded to do anything either, and you really are stuck.

Not that this will help you, but just to let you know that you are not the only one.

 

[Lakesailor]

On the other hand I do see that if the main is sheeted in, once through the turn, the main will tend to push it back.

You'd have to let it out sharpish. Again on my sluggish bilge keeler I found that having succeeded in tacking I usually had to head off the wind and slacken the sheets to fill the sails and get some drive before heading up and sheeting in, once on the move.

 

[William_H]

Failure to tack

I have seen this effect only once that I remember in my boat. it was into very choppy water in strong winds. I don't know of any solution except try again or gybe.

This may be exacerbated by weed on the hull or a very sluggish hull. Yes I would agree that too much weight aft might make the bow susceptible to choppy waves. Try to get the bow into the water and the transom or stern just under the surface. ie well balanced as seen from the side. Get someone else to look and comment or get photos.
The boats needs to be set up for the wind conditions. ie a flat main and correct size for strong winds. If performance to windward is poor then it would follow that tacking will be difficult.

As already said the speed of turning is critical. and especially the angle the rudder is given. Too much will slow the boat with drag, too little will make the turn too slow. You can watch the rudder on transom mounted rudders and see if it starts to stall. (or hear it) with a lot of turbulence.

The jib should be tight and be allowed to back as you go into head to wind. Allow the backing jib to carry the bow around until you get some drive from the main then shift the jib sheets across.
I use this technique every time I depart my swing mooring. The backed jib will pull the boat around through 90 degrees (away from the buoy and dinghy) before the boat starts moving forward. A very powerful turning force.

The mainsheet I think should remain tight to give drive for as long as possible and resume drive as soon as possible after the turn.

Catamarans often having a long shallow keel(s) are difficult to tack in this same way. Small cats often don't have a jib and so are impossible. Fitting and using a jib correctly makes tacking very positive.
In the same way I am always reluctant to sail my boat without a jib. A jib gives real control in a tight situation. good luck olewill

 

[alant]

A couple of months ago I posted a query on techniques to avoid stalling In Irons, while executing a tack. Several useful suggestions were put forward, such as not putting the rudder hard and full over, which would slow the boat too much through the turn.

While I fancy this had a beneficial effect, I still had an irritating experience one afternoon; every time I tried to turn through the wind, I would stall and be blown back to the original course. I tried bearing away first and then turning into the wind gently and progressively, all to no avail.

A telephone call to the boat builder had him somewhat perplexed as to the cause. He did say that he had had a one or two customers with the same concerns, but in each case it was because they were holding the main sheet in tight. This wasn't my case, but surely if the jib is loose, any wind on a tight main will give it weather helm and push it towards the wind?

One problem, in this particular instance, was that even on a broad reach, I guessed I was only doing about 2-3 knots (Note to self - switch on GPS!). Turning from the starboard tack presented no problems. Perhaps there was too much tidal current going the other way, although the Tidal Stream Atlas doesn't indicate anything above 1.5 knots. Having said that, I know local tidal streams may be different on the micro rather than on the macro scale.

However, under such conditions I would be forced to either put the engine on or turn tail and gybe round to the other tack - neither of which is cricket, really

The builder also felt that single-handing, with both myself and the outboard at the back, might be lifting the bows too much into the wind - he suggested to ballast the front; I now have 54 kg of extra lead in the fore-locker. We'll see if this works.

Just another thought.

Is the boat actually 'in irons' when you try to tack, ie head to wind but not going around, with stern being pushed back? If this is the case, can it 'sail' back in the direction the rudder is pointing?

Way back, I sailed a dinghy (Kestrel) with main only (big one) which I was unable to reef & reversing the tiller when in irons, allowed me to control direction when missed tack, 'sailing' back along the rudder & onto the tack I was attempting. A common dinghy trick, which might work for you. The mainsheet definitely must be slackened for this to work.

If you don't have enough momentum to even get into irons, then look to the previous suggestions which have been made. Weight in the bows can make a difference. Even in an modern AWB, if there is a water tank under the forepeak berth that is emptied first, this will make it difficult to stop the bows being pushed away by any waves.

 

[jwilson]

Might work on a modern boat, but long keelers need speed and loads of time to steer in reverse, if they steer at all.

Not much around bigger and longer keeled than square-riggers, and many of these need to make a sternboard to tack.

Back to a small gaffer - unless there is something very odd about the design she should tack. IGNORE TIDE OR CURRENT. Don't let go the jib sheet until you are through the wind: the action of luffing keeps it full of wind longer than you would expect. As the bows go through the wind the jisb should back and push the bows round. If at that point you have started to go backwards through the WATER (IGNORE TIDE) reverse the tiller and she will go backwards, swinging the bows the way you want.

 

[Neil]

Just another thought.
If you don't have enough momentum to even get into irons, then look to the previous suggestions which have been made. Weight in the bows can make a difference. Even in an modern AWB, if there is a water tank under the forepeak berth that is emptied first, this will make it difficult to stop the bows being pushed away by any waves.

In that very irritating instance during the summer, I didn't even get to irons. Normally, I just tack, without taking any special precautions or even consciously think particularly about what I'm doing. It happened once in the harbour, so waves might not be a decisive factor, though it seems more prevalent in stronger winds; this is the only slight correlation I have observed.

On weight distribution, in my minds eye, I see my boat with 10 people all sitting perched on the stern, such that the bows are clear of the water. No matter what you can do with the sails, the wind on the hull will always push the boat away from the wind. To a lesser extent, just me and the outboard at the back will have a similar (though less pronounced) effect?

The suggestion of getting a racer on board to see the problem at first hand is a good one, and I do know a lady who races a gaffer every Wednesday afternoon. I just know that Sod's law will rule and it won't happen when she's on board!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I once had a Prout cat with some of the same characteristics you describe. If I mistimed a tack, it would lose all its speed before the bow got through the wind and could be blown backwards onto the same tack. If that happpened, the trick was to reverse the rudder so that it was blown backwards onto the tack I wanted. Then correct the rudder as it rapidly built up forward speed.

It is, as Lakesailor point out, an issue of momentum and drag. You have a boat with high drag ( the long keel) and low momentum ( low speed). You need to make the best of it by freeing off maybe 5 to 10 degrees before tacking to build up speed. Once you have as good a speed as you can get, then go smoothly into the tack since jamming the rudder over acts like a brake.

How clean is the hull? I came back from Guernsey one year in the Prout with what looked like a light covering of the hair type weed. But it was enough to stop the boat from tacking full stop. Cleaned the bottom and off we went. Your boat speed definitely sounds too low for the size of boat and the wind - were you dragging the o/b through the water?

You have an un-handy boat. OK gaff might look pretty but its poor to windward, and why anyone would want a long keel beats me. So it's never going to be easy and you will always need to sail it well to get what you want. You wont have the margin for mistakes that a modern Bermudan set up would have

You might like to write to PBO with your problem wince they have in the past made an article out of sending an expert over to help someone get round a sailing problem - I remember a cutter rigged Fisher that wouldnt tack either

 

[ProDave]

If at that point you have started to go backwards through the WATER (IGNORE TIDE) reverse the tiller and she will go backwards, swinging the bows the way you want.

If that happpened, the trick was to reverse the rudder so that it was blown backwards onto the tack I wanted. Then correct the rudder as it rapidly built up forward speed.

Isn't that what I suggested in post #11 but got shot down for?

 

[Lakesailor]

But this is the YBW forum.
People post their thoughts without reading previous posts and the sharpshooters who got you will have passed on to other threads to whinge now.
Read all about posting of repeat answers in the Lakesailor Rules.

 

[Pye_End]

Isn't that what I suggested in post #11 but got shot down for?

If my comments mad you feel as though you were shot down then I appologise.

I have a long keel cutter, and as is typical of such boats under power I need plenty of speed in reverse to steer, and having achieved a decent speed with the helm hard over it takes between 1 and two boat lengths for the helm to start answering. If trying to steer in a straight line you then have to anticipate the continuing turn by putting the helm hard over the other way at least a boat length before you need to, if you see what I mean.

I cannot see any reason why this would be any different sailing backward under sail.

Occasionally I have the problem described by the poster, and my boat settles back on to its original tack way before the helm has any ability to do anything. I cannot imagine being able to control it in irons long enough to go backwards and really cannot see this as being a viable option, although the comments that much larger craft used are are interesting. I have no direct experience of square riggers, but my readings of such vessels lead me to believe that they steered by backing yards in narrow rivers, is using the pivoting effect of the wind to steer. I would be very interested to hear if such vessels as Bristol Pilot cutters sailed backwards to get through a tack.

My previous fin keeler used to be able to steer far better in such situations. I can understand you being able to steer with such a keel configuration and weight of boat, and am interested that people can put this theory into practice.

It maybe something for the poster to try, but I have my doubts it will work for him.

 

[Neil]

I
Occasionally I have the problem described by the poster, and my boat settles back on to its original tack way before the helm has any ability to do anything. I cannot imagine being able to control it in irons long enough to go backwards and really cannot see this as being a viable option, although the comments that much larger craft used are are interesting. him.

This sounds like my situation - have you come to any conclusions as to the reasons for this to occur only occasionally?

 

[Pye_End]

Possibly like your rig, mine is relatively low down, with a long boom and a bowsprit giving a foresail a longer distance from the pivot than on a modern tall rig. I find that in bumpy and fresh weather it does not have the power that the taller rigs have and really notice the drop off in speed when the waves pick up. Getting the balance between getting plenty of sail up tp keep her going, and having high degrees of heel is not always straightforward. It is probably worse when a blow is subsiding so the wind speed dies off but the seas remain. With a fairly full bow she tends to stop easier than a fine bow, or maybe a flat one that bounces.

What has helped I believe over the years is rig/sail tuning and new sails. Mine is Bermuden so no idea how this effects a gaff cutter. I now use a padded roller fulrling jib which has improved shape no end when reefed. Perhaps more miles under the keel has helped as well.

 

[alahol2]

The other way to look at it is that EVERYBODY misses a tack sometimes.
PS you don't mention it, but if you've got a centreboard it needs to be down when trying to tack.

 

[LeonF]

With a similar cutter rigged boat to Pye End I have found the same problem in strong winds and choppy water. It can be nerve wracking when short tacking in confined waters, and I have on occasion had to get the engine on in a hurry. With experienced crew I can gybe. A few weeks ago in just such conditions, I found gently sailing her through the tack, with a crew member pinning the self tacking staysail to back it until through the tack was the answer. Not so easy when single handing, but then it's probably best to gybe as one has a less crowded cockpit.

 

[Neil]

The other way to look at it is that EVERYBODY misses a tack sometimes.
PS you don't mention it, but if you've got a centreboard it needs to be down when trying to tack.

I'm glad it's not just me and no, no centreboard

With a similar cutter rigged boat to Pye End I have found the same problem in strong winds and choppy water. It can be nerve wracking when short tacking in confined waters, and I have on occasion had to get the engine on in a hurry. With experienced crew I can gybe. A few weeks ago in just such conditions, I found gently sailing her through the tack, with a crew member pinning the self tacking staysail to back it until through the tack was the answer. Not so easy when single handing, but then it's probably best to gybe as one has a less crowded cockpit.

At least I'm not alone, and perhaps my difficulties don't just stem from gross incompetence!

I'm thinking that in stronger winds, one can reef the main and shorten the jib, but one can't 'reef' the hull, so the effect of the wind will have a relatively greater action on the bows pushing the boat away from the wind? Add to that the effect of waves hitting the bows with the corresponding loss of the boats momentum, and I might see how the negatives add up....???

 

[KellysEye]

We have a long keeler and always back the headsail. Can't see how more weight in the bows can help it will just slow you down, can't believe the builder would recommend that.