Sold a faulty engine

[ThomasMartin]

Looking for some advice.

A few months back we replaced the old knackered yanmar 2QM20 in our sailboat and installed a newer and more powerful Perkins perama M30.

We were sold the Perkins to us by Marine Enterprises Ltd for around £2800 for this we expected a fully reconditioned engine.

However when the engine arrived it was in a somewhat shoddy state; air intake was filthy, oil was black as night, control panel was sort of compatible, missing engine mounts (mounts clearly visble in the ad).

We emailed them to notify that we were dipleased with the lack of servicing done, they reply telling me how to rectify this and that they would sent out engine mounts as way of an apology.

These engine mounts were never sent out to us and we to order them ourselves at the cost of £120 as the launch date was quickly approaching. I contacted them again asking where the mounts were and never got a reply.

When testing the engine I found the tachometer was none functional and spent a considerable time consulting the workshop manual and a marine engineer about this issue. It was all wired up correctly with ground and T+ on the alternator, the alternator was working as it was outputting a decent voltage, clearly the tachy was faulty. didnt have the money to replace the tachy having spent so much on everything else.

So we were lifted in and commenced sea trails, a short sail to an anchorage a few hours away. The sailing was good but had issues with the Perkins starting, turned out to be air in fuel lines, easily remedied (cracked the injectors and reprimed).

leaving the anchorage had same issue, clearly something was amiss, pulled the injectors and found they were dirty and clogged, cleaned them, reprimed the fuel system and she fired straight up.

A few weeks later we took the boat to an achorage near our home port, approximately 5NM away. There wasnt much wind that day so had to fired up Perkins. Started and ran fine on the way there, nice sunny day fishing at the anchorage and returned home, ran fine on the way back to. A round trip of 10NM, 3 hours of motoring, just cruising along.

Went to start the engine the next day, kluck! nothing, no turn over. on closer inspection found all 3 cyclinders were filled with coolant. With abit of research deducted that the engine must have overheated and blew the head gasket, but why? hadn't run perkins that hard at all. Turned out the heat exchanger was very corroded on the interior and the coolant pump as well.

I contacted Marine Enterprises asking them to send out replacement parts, we'd had only brought the engine about 4 months prior and used it a total of 2-3 times and obviously this fualt was there when it was sold to us.

They're have not responsed at all to my repeated messages, for almost a months now. so here I am with dead in the water, having been ripped off.

What should I do?

 

[veshengro]

A look at the company may tell a story. I'm guessing they are not a member of any Marine Trade Organisation that you could seek assistance from about your engine purchase.

MARINE ENTERPRISES LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum.

First thing - this is perhaps not the best part of the forum for such a question. Better posting on the PBO section.

Anyway you seem to have a claim against the supplier. However the devil is in the detail. I am surprised that you expected a reconditioned engine for that sort of price so the starting point is to determine exactly how the engine was described to you. It is a 20+ year old used engine and the price reflects that. A "fully reconditioned" unit would be at least twice that. so how much redress you can expect will depend on how the engine was described by the vendor and any claim made by them a to what work had been done to it before the sale. Was there any kind of written warranty? Did you inspect the engine or see it running before you bought it? The first step might be to put together a file with photos of the heat exchanger, pump, injectors together with an estimate of costs to repair. Send this by registered post with a request to reimburse you with the costs and see what response you get. I suspect you are going to have an uphill battle if they do not respond positively. A new heat exchanger, raw water pump and head overhaul will likely exceed what you paid for the engine so probably the best you can expect is some financial settlement towards the repairs.

I wrote the above before I saw pos#2. I was a bit surprised you were having difficulties with Marine Enterprises as I have some past experience with them and have visited their premises. They had a good reputation locally (I live in Poole) and many of our local traders dealt with them. However I now see that Sean Brackstone has sold out and you are dealing with the new owner(s).
.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Ive looked at their site, and a long while ago bought some parts and they were great.
The engines they are selling on their site of that age for that money, that i have seen just now, are described as used and resprayed.
I certainly wouldn't fit a used engine into a boat without at least a partial strip. Head off, checking the bores, valve wear, crank and bearing wear and expecting to clean and possibly replace the heat exchanger.
The last reconditiined engine i biught was a triumph 2000 for my gt6 from jigsaw racing. that cost close to 10k and i doubt there was much profit in it for them given the labour.
Now i know a boat engine doesnt need forged parts and ultra careful balancing but you are not going to get a reconditioned engine for 2.5 k.

Given the price of bearings, pistons and valves and heat exchanges i would think a properly recon engine will cost more than say a new beta on a crate.

 

[PCUK]

Take them to the small claims court. Not expensive and they may not like a CCJ filed against them.
I have found that just sending a photo-copy of the completed form to the company will often elicit a positive reaction.
Also, as said. re-post on PBO Forum.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Have you got anything in writing about the reconditioning and what they claim to have done?

 

[Tranona]

Take them to the small claims court. Not expensive and they may not like a CCJ filed against them.
I have found that just sending a photo-copy of the completed form to the company will often elicit a positive reaction.
Also, as said. re-post on PBO Forum.

It is not as simple as that. While it is a relatively easy way to get a court to assess your case you still have to demonstrate that you have suffered a loss. In this case it will be for breach of contract and it is not clear what the contract was or how the goods were described (for example was it a a "reconditioned" engine). Even if he does get enough evidence to show that the engine was not as described and the court finds in his favour he may still have difficulty in actually getting his money back or the engine repaired.

 

[KevinV]

It is not as simple as that. While it is a relatively easy way to get a court to assess your case you still have to demonstrate that you have suffered a loss. In this case it will be for breach of contract and it is not clear what the contract was or how the goods were described (for example was it a a "reconditioned" engine). Even if he does get enough evidence to show that the engine was not as described and the court finds in his favour he may still have difficulty in actually getting his money back or the engine repaired.

Quite. The time to reject the engine was when it arrived looking below expectation. Having seen the state of it, and accepted it, I don't see how beyond that point it is possible to claim one thought it was reconditioned and claim for any subsequent costs/losses.

 

[Tamar]

I bought exactly the same engine off this company about 3 years ago to replace my knackered Perkins. I don't think that they advertise Reconditioned, but refurbished which is a world of difference.
As far as I know when they get them in they run them up on the bench and if all is good paint them and advertise them.
My engine was advertised as low hours and running with good oil pressure, which was all true. They sent me a video of it running on the bench without load which doesn't help much I know. It's still running good and it has a hard life on my work boat. I took a chance and got lucky.
I think you would have an uphill struggle claiming anything off these people.
You have used the engine so I guess you accepted it.

 

[penberth3]

It is not as simple as that. While it is a relatively easy way to get a court to assess your case you still have to demonstrate that you have suffered a loss. In this case it will be for breach of contract and it is not clear what the contract was or how the goods were described (for example was it a a "reconditioned" engine). Even if he does get enough evidence to show that the engine was not as described and the court finds in his favour he may still have difficulty in actually getting his money back or the engine repaired.

Exactly. And the OP says "we expected a fully reconditioned engine", not "we asked for a fully reconditioned engine". Already mentioned up the thread - the price was suspiciously cheap.

 

[potentillaCO32]

It is always a bit off when someone joins the forum to get a bit of advice and people spend time to think and respond. Then the person is never heard from again.

It may be that the person doesnt like some or all of the advice but, i think, rude not even to acknowledge it given the effort people have put in.

 

[Irish Rover]

It is always a bit off when someone joins the forum to get a bit of advice and people spend time to think and respond. Then the person is never heard from again.

It may be that the person doesnt like some or all of the advice but, i think, rude not even to acknowledge it given the effort people have put in.

I agree with your general point, but in this case I think the OP will have realised from the responses he made a big and costly mistake, and will be hurting. He may be back.

 

[Never Grumble]

IIRC they changed ownership not that long ago, who knows but doesn't sound like for the better. I suspect your position depends on how the goods were described. I always got the impression they got engines in checked they ran painted them up and flogged them on.

 

[ThomasMartin]

Hello all thanks for your responses,
Just to clarify a few things; it was adverstised as "starts and runs nicely, has been fully cleaned and resprayed" so maybe not a full rebuild but certainly refurbished. This was not the case, not even a basic service.
I was recommended marine enterprises by a friend who said that the owner Sean was very meticulous with the engines that they sold, obviously standards have severely dropped since the company was passed on to the new owners.
Im just trying to weigh up wether putting in a court claim would be worth while or a complete waste of time.
Either way need a working engine so am going to have to get it fixed.
Seems like abit of a catch 22, how are you suppose to know whether an engine is running well without running it under load? Or how would you know theres no faults without stripping the engine down?

 

[ThomasMartin]

 

[ThomasMartin]

As you can see the coolant pump bolts were so corroded removing them was a job and half in its self.

 

[KevinV]

"starts and runs nicely, has been fully cleaned and resprayed" so maybe not a full rebuild but certainly refurbished.

I'm sorry but I just don't think that cleaned and resprayed means anything like refurbished or a rebuild.

 

[Poignard]

If I were you, I would stop emailing and write a letter to the seller. I have always found a carefully worded letter to be more effective at letting someone know you mean business, than emails, and phone calls.

A letter, sent recorded delivery, that begins by setting out history of the transaction, what you had been led to believe you were buying, who said what, &c. Then go on to detail the problems you have had (with any supporting evidence: eg photos, engineers' reports). Conclude by stating what you want done to satisfy your complaint, and the date you want it done by.

Depending on the response, decide what to do next.

 

[Tranona]

Hello all thanks for your responses,
Just to clarify a few things; it was adverstised as "starts and runs nicely, has been fully cleaned and resprayed" so maybe not a full rebuild but certainly refurbished. This was not the case, not even a basic service.
I was recommended marine enterprises by a friend who said that the owner Sean was very meticulous with the engines that they sold, obviously standards have severely dropped since the company was passed on to the new owners.
Im just trying to weigh up wether putting in a court claim would be worth while or a complete waste of time.
Either way need a working engine so am going to have to get it fixed.
Seems like abit of a catch 22, how are you suppose to know whether an engine is running well without running it under load? Or how would you know theres no faults without stripping the engine down?

Terminology is fraught with problems. The way you described the engine as you received it was as it just came out of a boat. You are right in describing what Sean did to prepare engines for sale - I have seen him doing it. BUT he did not spend any money on more than running them changing oil and filters then cleaning and spraying unless it added value. In those cases he would state what had been done or replaced. Anything more than that on the Perkins/Volvo is really uneconomic. The weak points as you have discovered are the water pump, heat exchanger and exhaust and if they don't respond to cleaning are really expensive to replace.

I feel for you. I met Sean when I was looking for exactly the same engine (or the Volvo version) for my project. I had a 2030 in a previous boat from new to 3500 hours without any problems. However that was in commercial use which meant regular use and servicing unlike many leisure users who do few hours light use which the cooling system does not like and the problems you found can appear at relatively low hours. Even if the basic engine is sound a proper rebuild can cost as much or more than you paid for your engine making it close to the cost of a new current model. I went the new engine route but appreciate not everybody is prepared to spend the extra, nor is it justified for many old boats.

Your last sentence is key - you need to see the engine running and find out as much history as you can. I sold the engine in my project boat (also a Perkins but the 40hp version) and sent the buyer a video of it starting and running under load. He paid me £1500 for it and pretty sure it was fine for what he wanted - not heard anything to the contrary! Of course buying from a trader a you have done you would expect to pay more and have more confidence that the engine would work. However getting redress when it turns out to be a dud is not easy. Going to court is a last resort. If you get no response Trading Standards is the first call. However, as I suggested earlier much depends on how the engine was described against what you received and any written warranty provided.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Hello all thanks for your responses,
Just to clarify a few things; it was adverstised as "starts and runs nicely, has been fully cleaned and resprayed" so maybe not a full rebuild but certainly refurbished. This was not the case, not even a basic service.

I can see how upsetting this is but their description is exactly what you got. I don't see how you could have any recourse at all. They are selling a secondhand engine full stop.
Really if you want that to be a reliable engine you need to strip it and recondition it. Which might cost as much as a new one depending on what needs doing. Or it might need very little. It's usually the bits around a marine engine that corrode out rather than engines wearing out.