Solar performance

lustyd

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If they’re all the same that suggests user error, but since you’re unwilling to investigate we’ll never know. You may well have fake panels.
All we know for sure is you and Will are having issues millions of people aren’t having.
 

Trident

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They are 50w.
They are wired in series pairs. It doesn't matter if they are old stock. They are rated at 50w by Renogy but the performance is woeful. There is no way these panels will ever make 50w in normal use unlike framed panels that exceed the rating on a regular basis
Its interesting that you have had issues - I've fitted them to several boats where nothing else will fit and all make around their full output - but on 12v boats . There are 6 on a Woods that I fitted that run all the systems and 2 CR50 fridges in the UK - in full sun we see about 20 amps in to the 200ah Lithium battery .

I put two 50 w panels on a little Colvic - the only room being on the sliding companionway hatch so under the boom but we regularly see 6-7 amps from these .

Perhaps contact Renogy with your figures over time and see if there is a warranty issue - I know you can only go by your own experience but I have fitted nothing but Renogy panels to dozens of boats for 3 or 4 years now and not had any issues at all with performance or quality. I've just ordered 5 of their 220w bifacial panels so I'll let you know how they perform
 

geem

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Its interesting that you have had issues - I've fitted them to several boats where nothing else will fit and all make around their full output - but on 12v boats . There are 6 on a Woods that I fitted that run all the systems and 2 CR50 fridges in the UK - in full sun we see about 20 amps in to the 200ah Lithium battery .

I put two 50 w panels on a little Colvic - the only room being on the sliding companionway hatch so under the boom but we regularly see 6-7 amps from these .

Perhaps contact Renogy with your figures over time and see if there is a warranty issue - I know you can only go by your own experience but I have fitted nothing but Renogy panels to dozens of boats for 3 or 4 years now and not had any issues at all with performance or quality. I've just ordered 5 of their 220w bifacial panels so I'll let you know how they perform
Have you specifically fitted the 50w flexible panels? It would appear that the larger sizes perform well
 

geem

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If they’re all the same that suggests user error, but since you’re unwilling to investigate we’ll never know. You may well have fake panels.
All we know for sure is you and Will are having issues millions of people aren’t having.
My panels were bought directly from Renogy in the USA. Not through a dealer. How do you expect me to investigate the panels further? I have tested them thoroughly and they don't perform anywhere near what my glass panels are doing. They have never got anywhere near the rated output when my glass panels have exceeded the rated output by 15%. The four 50w panels have never exceeded 127w, ever. What user error do you think I could have?
 

geem

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If they’re all the same that suggests user error, but since you’re unwilling to investigate we’ll never know. You may well have fake panels.
All we know for sure is you and Will are having issues millions of people aren’t having.
In the interest of science, I just disconnected the panels. Checked the open circuit current. All circa 22v. I disconnect one pair of panels such that the cable volt drop is now only dealing with 100w of solar not 200w. The output for that 100w of solar in direct sun was 1.6A at 24v. Compared to 360w of framed solar panels with exactly the same orientation producing 12A@24v
The surface temperature of the framed panels is 38degC where as its 52degC on the felixible panels. This accounts for about 4% drop in efficiency. It doesn't account for the vast difference in performance.
Any other suggestions of what you think might be operator error?

Edit from the standard 25degC test temperature we should see about 8% drop in performance so a maximum output at a surface temperature of 38degC of about 46w. The maximum I have seen averaged across all 4 panels is 32w
 
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B27

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In the interest of science, I just disconnected the panels. Checked the open circuit current. All circa 22v. I disconnect one pair of panels such that the cable volt drop is now only dealing with 100w of solar not 200w. The output for that 100w of solar in direct sun was 1.6A at 24v. Compared to 360w of framed solar panels with exactly the same orientation producing 12A@24v
The surface temperature of the framed panels is 38degC where as its 52degC on the felixible panels. This accounts for about 4% drop in efficiency. It doesn't account for the vast difference in performance.
Any other suggestions of what you think might be operator error?

Edit from the standard 25degC test temperature we should see about 8% drop in performance so a maximum output at a surface temperature of 38degC of about 46w. The maximum I have seen averaged across all 4 panels is 32w
Open circuit current 22V?
If you mean open circuit voltage, then maybe your controller isn't good at stepping these panels up to 24 or 28V?
What's the open circuit voltage of the framed panels?
You're testing a panel-regulator combo and blaming the panels.

Short circuit current is a useful test for small panels, I'd RTFM before shorting some big high voltage panels (or combinations thereof) though.

Genuine Renogy panels should do what's claimed. There are a lot of bad flexi panels out there and some may be counterfeited as 'good' brands.
 

geem

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Open circuit current 22V?
If you mean open circuit voltage, then maybe your controller isn't good at stepping these panels up to 24 or 28V?
What's the open circuit voltage of the framed panels?
You're testing a panel-regulator combo and blaming the panels.

Short circuit current is a useful test for small panels, I'd RTFM before shorting some big high voltage panels (or combinations thereof) though.

Genuine Renogy panels should do what's claimed. There are a lot of bad flexi panels out there and some may be counterfeited as 'good' brands.
The controllers are Victron smart solar MPPTs about as good as it gets. Tell me if you know a better solar controller?
Yes, short circuit voltage. Tested at each panel. They are exactly what Renogy say they should be. I am not testing a combo. I am testing the panel.
 

Trident

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Have you specifically fitted the 50w flexible panels? It would appear that the larger sizes perform well
Yes as I said - I did 6 of the 50w on a Woods Banshee because the deck only allowed for the small size in odd places and 2 on a Colvic and another two on a third mono but I have no idea how they performed as the owner never unplugged from shore power in two years and then went off in a camper van !
 

Trident

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In the interest of science, I just disconnected the panels. Checked the open circuit current. All circa 22v. I disconnect one pair of panels such that the cable volt drop is now only dealing with 100w of solar not 200w. The output for that 100w of solar in direct sun was 1.6A at 24v. Compared to 360w of framed solar panels with exactly the same orientation producing 12A@24v
The surface temperature of the framed panels is 38degC where as its 52degC on the felixible panels. This accounts for about 4% drop in efficiency. It doesn't account for the vast difference in performance.
Any other suggestions of what you think might be operator error?

Edit from the standard 25degC test temperature we should see about 8% drop in performance so a maximum output at a surface temperature of 38degC of about 46w. The maximum I have seen averaged across all 4 panels is 32w
Your MPPT will be charging at 28v so 1.6A at 28v is 45 watts - and if you have 8% drop for temperature on a 50w thats 46w max so they are doing exactly what they should aren't they? Now with the two in series they give 40v and the MPPT should make some of that back to charge at 28v but you're not doing too badly . Was the sun directly overhead or close enough rather than an angle.

You know all this stuff inside out, so I'm not trying to lecture you - just trying to get to the issue. I suspect they are just very small for what you're hoping for - you've effectively got 100w at 40v to charge at 24v and the difference as you know between input voltage and charge voltage makes the best of an MPPT - the higher the better.

Obviously glass panels are always better performing but don't write off flexi - they fit in a lot of places and only weigh a fraction of glass so for on top of canvas etc they're unbeatable. I've got a pair of 175w in series on a separate MPPT so a good test bed - I'll keep some records from them for the next 7 days and message you with the results so you can get some typical figures. FYI these panels are 2 years old now and fixed flat on a solid deck.
 

geem

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Your MPPT will be charging at 28v so 1.6A at 28v is 45 watts - and if you have 8% drop for temperature on a 50w thats 46w max so they are doing exactly what they should aren't they? Now with the two in series they give 40v and the MPPT should make some of that back to charge at 28v but you're not doing too badly . Was the sun directly overhead or close enough rather than an angle.

You know all this stuff inside out, so I'm not trying to lecture you - just trying to get to the issue. I suspect they are just very small for what you're hoping for - you've effectively got 100w at 40v to charge at 24v and the difference as you know between input voltage and charge voltage makes the best of an MPPT - the higher the better.

Obviously glass panels are always better performing but don't write off flexi - they fit in a lot of places and only weigh a fraction of glass so for on top of canvas etc they're unbeatable. I've got a pair of 175w in series on a separate MPPT so a good test bed - I'll keep some records from them for the next 7 days and message you with the results so you can get some typical figures. FYI these panels are 2 years old now and fixed flat on a solid deck.
1.6A was for a pair so 100w of solar not a single 50w panel
 

noelex

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Geem’s experiences are not unique . Flexible panels do have a more significant failure rate and a more limited life than rigid panels. 52°C is not a healthy temperature for solar panels.

However, the life generally experienced with flexible panels is not unusual for other marine equipment. I don’t think we should dismiss flexible solar panels, especially as prices for solar panels is now low.

The difference compared to some other types of marine equipment is that an alternative exists. Rigid solar panels have an exceptional life with only very rare failures. This does not apply to other marine equipment. I wish I could buy a water pump that lasted 20+ years of full time use with no service requirements, but such an option is not available.

A long trouble free lifespan is possible when buying (rigid) solar panels. The life of flexible solar panels seems poor compared to rigid panels, but not when compared to other marine equipment.

If you can use rigid panels these will last much longer and have a better output, but if not just replace the flexible panels as they age or wear out much like most boat equipment.
 
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B27

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The controllers are Victron smart solar MPPTs about as good as it gets. Tell me if you know a better solar controller?
Yes, short circuit voltage. Tested at each panel. They are exactly what Renogy say they should be. I am not testing a combo. I am testing the panel.
Short circuit voltage is zero. Depending on the kwolitee of your 'short' of course.

Depending on what Victron thing you have, AFAIK, it may need a panel voltage several volts above the battery voltage to work properly.
A 22V panel is good for step down MPPT charging to a 12V battery. To charge a 24V battery, you want a step-up controller/converter or bunch of solar panels with a V(max power) of 30+ volts, which is probably a V open circuit of 36+ volts.

Vintage Ladybird Book Magnets, Bulbs and Batteries Series 621 1st Edition 2'6 B1 | eBay
 

PaulRainbow

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Short circuit voltage is zero. Depending on the kwolitee of your 'short' of course.

Depending on what Victron thing you have, AFAIK, it may need a panel voltage several volts above the battery voltage to work properly.
A 22V panel is good for step down MPPT charging to a 12V battery. To charge a 24V battery, you want a step-up controller/converter or bunch of solar panels with a V(max power) of 30+ volts, which is probably a V open circuit of 36+ volts.

Vintage Ladybird Book Magnets, Bulbs and Batteries Series 621 1st Edition 2'6 B1 | eBay
2 x 22v panels wired in series = 44v, easy for the Victron MPPT to step that down to whatever the 24v batteries need.
 

lustyd

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Flexible panels do have a more significant failure rate and a more limited life than rigid panels. 52°C is not a healthy temperature for solar panels
Well treated panels don’t have significant failure rates, those days are long gone and people need to stop perpetuating those myths.
52C is hot for a human, for silicon electronics it’s actually pretty cool.
 

lustyd

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My panels were bought directly from Renogy in the USA. Not through a dealer. How do you expect me to investigate the panels further
As I and other have suggested, ask Renogy why you’re getting those numbers. You can do all the tests you like but if you have bad panels only Renogy can help you. Until and unless you do that please stop bad mouthing them in Internet forums with your anecdotal results.
 

geem

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Short circuit voltage is zero. Depending on the kwolitee of your 'short' of course.

Depending on what Victron thing you have, AFAIK, it may need a panel voltage several volts above the battery voltage to work properly.
A 22V panel is good for step down MPPT charging to a 12V battery. To charge a 24V battery, you want a step-up controller/converter or bunch of solar panels with a V(max power) of 30+ volts, which is probably a V open circuit of 36+ volts.

Vintage Ladybird Book Magnets, Bulbs and Batteries Series 621 1st Edition 2'6 B1 | eBay
You need to get a better understanding of the tech. That's not how it works
 

geem

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As I and other have suggested, ask Renogy why you’re getting those numbers. You can do all the tests you like but if you have bad panels only Renogy can help you. Until and unless you do that please stop bad mouthing them in Internet forums with your anecdotal results.
I contacted Renogy yesterday through there on line chat help. Typed in the details of the problem. Got a reply and then told it timed out due to inactivity! There's not mine. Couldn't be arsed to type it all in again but might give it another go today.
Forums are the perfect place to bad mouth poor products. If you went on the Amercian forums you would never buy Renogy kit. The kit is generally low quality and the Amercian after sales services in none existent. Having purchased the panels in the US and shipped them to the Caribbean, I don't expect Renogy UK to be interested. If I can let people know not to buy the 50w panels because they are very poor output then its job done.
If I had one bad panel, I wouldn't be doing this. I have four bad panels! They simply do not provide the output you would expect. They should be labelled as 30w panels not 50w
 

Fr J Hackett

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Well treated panels don’t have significant failure rates, those days are long gone and people need to stop perpetuating those myths.
52C is hot for a human, for silicon electronics it’s actually pretty cool.
At 52°C there will be a significant degradation in the output of any solar panel, it's simple physics.
 

B27

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You need to get a better understanding of the tech. That's not how it works
You're the one who's not making it work....

There seem to be a lot of people with solar panels who've 'learned' about it on youtube but can't sort things out.
 

lustyd

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Forums are the perfect place to bad mouth poor products.
I agree, but that assumes there's genuine evidence of a bad product and some effort has been made to determine that the problem is systemic. Millions of these have been sold and most of us are having no problems at all which suggests strongly that the product itself is not flawed. That means either user error, faulty item, or fake item.
 
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