Should regulations be introduced for masts and rigging in the leisure market?

[Caraway]

The trouble is that it can be quite hard to obtain a rigging assessment on rigs over 10-years old without a boiler plate recommendation to replace.

It's worth spending a bit of time finding someone who is prepared to do this in advance of commissioning them.

That's it. See the weather forecasters covering their arses. It would be open season for not just riggers, but also rig manufacturers.

It's like glaziers paying yobs to go and break windows.

 

[Kelpie]

That will all be solved by setting national standards along with NVQs and upwards with a national scale of charges (extra charges for home visits and travelling time for more than 1km from base), an on line computer system to record the results and fines for non compliance. Supply of certificated riggers will expand rapidly along with a compulsory trade association. Plus of course compulsory fitment of titanium chain plates. You heard it here first.

All to solve a non existent problem.

A scary thought. And the small number of yachts based here might just pack it in since nobody locally is going to get themselves set up in this business just to fleece half a dozen yachts.

If it was an insurance based system, rather than a legal requirement, that's not so bad. Most boats especially at the smaller and cheaper end won't carry comprehensive insurance. anyway.

 

[zoidberg]

You suspect wrong.
Here, Let Me Google That For You

Now you've got me worried.... My 'boat-bling' might break!

 

[lustyd]

Any material will fail if its fatigue level is exceeded during its designed life, so your link does not actually prove anything, other than its installation should be subject to correct design assessment. Similar situations probably occur with SS rod rigging which need consideration earlier than some owners might like

The point it that it's not suited to this use-case, not that the design is wrong. People think titanium is indestructable but it's actually quite unsuitable for a number of use-cases and fails suddenly and without warning. Stainless fails in a quite different fashion, and in this instance will usually be corrosion based failures.

Now you've got me worried.... My 'boat-bling' might break!

It very well might if you use it long term, ti sailing bits are generally designed for racing workloads so less expectation of longevity. The same happened in the cycling world when people used to think it was a wonder material. Then the frames started to break!

 

[Tranona]

A scary thought. And the small number of yachts based here might just pack it in since nobody locally is going to get themselves set up in this business just to fleece half a dozen yachts.

If it was an insurance based system, rather than a legal requirement, that's not so bad. Most boats especially at the smaller and cheaper end won't carry comprehensive insurance. anyway.

Don't worry - that was tongue in cheek. It is never going to happen.

All sorts of things can break on a boat, but rare, and even rarer that there is significant damage. Insurers already know that which is why they restrict cover or even decline for racing and are more discriminating about boats doing higher mileages in all weathers, or cruising in areas with demanding sailing conditions. They use higher premiums to recognize higher risk, impose conditions like taking extra crew or decline cover. For the rest of us where the risk is much lower because of lower usage, more benign conditions etc, breakages that result in claims are covered comfortably within the general risk profile.

Have you insured for your adventure? If so what extra conditions did they impose and increase in premium. Not prying, just interested. The additional premium for having my boat in the Med was about 20% over that in the UK reflecting the higher cost of meeting claims there plus a further extra premium of around £100 for the voyage home. My current premium for twice the insured value on the new boat is less than it was 10 years ago in Corfu.

 

[Kelpie]

@Tranona we're planning to just continue our existing cover, adding new areas as necessary. This is with GJW. Cost to add the Biscay crossing and down to the Algarve is £130. Conditions imposed on time of year and a third experienced hand required, although they said they would consider waiving that one.

Once (if!) we sail beyond Europe I expect to revert to 3rd party as I don't think we'll be able to meet the conditions and the cost will probably be prohibitive. No harm in asking though, when nearer the time.

 

[Dysan]

And thousands in use that are 20 to 30 years old, there don't seem to be many failures.

Think mine is still on the original mast at 52 years old with a Med and two Atlantics done in her years. Typical survey results mean no fully comp until the standing rigging replaced even though it’s only 11 years old. Limit is 10.

 

[Frogmogman]

Man with vested interest in surveying things suggests more regulation requiring more surveying; colour me surprised.

Indeed. Clear case of MRDA (Mandy Rice Davies applies, as in “well, he would say that, wouldn’t he”)

FWIW, I remember Dave Barrow as a good bloke, in Lymington back in the 80s when he was the Stern Sailing Systems guy, before they merged with Sparcraft

 

[Daydream believer]

Indeed. Clear case of MRDA (Mandy Rice Davies applies, as in “well, he would say that, wouldn’t he”)

That is a regular miss quote, She actually said. -- "Well he would, wouldn't he? "

 

[Caraway]

That is a regular miss quote, She actually said. -- "Well he would, wouldn't he? "

I wonder if the newspaper reporting used that regular explanatory inset. "Well, he would (say that), wouldn't he?" and it's just stuck.

 

[Gwylan]

Around here a Contessa 32 snapped her mast in half and had to be towed in by the lifeboat just two days ago.

Cause: Rusted chainplate. So it’s not just rigging of course but also chainplates, tangs, and bottle screws.

An argument for unstayed rigs, or at least synthetic rigging, perhaps?

The current system may have worked well for decades. However, I am pessimistic. A decent proportion of the recent Youtoob generation of new sailors are so utterly clueless - and more importantly, unwilling or unable to learn - that they will cause more and more hassle and accidents over the coming years. Entirely due to a combination of laziness and narcissism.

This will force the authorities hand - to introduce boat licensing requirements as with cars, massively increased standards for insurance, restrictions everywhere, etc. There are now a frightening amount of sheep like idiots who believe they are going to be the next “La Vag” - and they will ultimately have to be protected from themselves.

mark my words..

Think it will be fine when riggers are licensed, have third party insurance, the materials are coded and they are required to have registered approved premises, calibrated and verified equipment.
All tested and reexamined every 3 years or at the whim of the local commissioner.

Be just like the flood of alleged surveyors, some of whom have actually seen photos of a boat

I sold my boat so it's all a bit academic.

 

[Gwylan]

That is a regular miss quote, She actually said. -- "Well he would, wouldn't he? "

Today they would be described as victims of abuse. But like boat sellers and alleged surveyors

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't remember any reference to MOTs in The Art of Coarse Sailing.

There is a reference to a car getting through its MOT with lots of plastic metal, near the beginning.

 

[penfold]

Today they would be described as victims of abuse. But like boat sellers and alleged surveyors

Worse than that, juveniles/vulnerable persons trafficked for sex.

 

[old oily]

To enable a proper inspection system we need several things
A clearly defined inspection requirement detailed and certified by the Original designer and the manufacturers test results and recommended maintenance procedures, accurate and complete maintenance logs and all receipts and certifications for work done.
The manufacturer must be required by law to provide a full set of test procedures and processes for each and every component on the vessel which could have an impact on safety up to the maximum permissible loads , seaworthiness and reliability. These procedures should detail a complete set of tests to be carried out at defined intervals. Thus an inspector should have under their own management and control all the physical and electronic equipment such as micrometers , vernier guages, load cells, material strength test, accurate physical testing equipment. To do their work. Should provide enough work for 10,000 or so officials.

 

[RJJ]

We already have something like that with most insurance companies requiring a survey every few years or with every new policy, at least for anything more than third party risk. They could get much more rigorous over their requirements if they wanted to but my reading of it is that they want legislation and regulation to make that decision for them. Be careful what you wish for-----you might get more than you wish for.

Economic theory tells us that regulation inhibits competition. And that's why the big firms like it.

What you'd love as a risk-averse insurer: to reduce your risk exposure by imposing conditions and costs, without needing to fear your disgruntled customer going to another provider, because that other provider (more willing to accept risk) has just been regulated out of existence.

Meanwhile, the whole noise is egged on by the rigging and surveying industry which speak more loudly than disparate rag-tag customers.

 

[RJJ]

Chill out ... if anything sailing is becoming safer for novices rather than more dangerous.

On one hand, I agree. Most people are more safety conscious; safety gear is much better; information (for those who look) is much more widely available.

However I would highlight two aspects of the generational shift. (1) many more sailors are piling into bigger boats as their first boat. Forty years ago a family cruising boat was 27-33 foot; 40ft+ was a palace. And (2) a greater proportion of people would have cut their teeth beforehand on some form of dinghy or trailer-sailer. I just don't see people doing much of that sort of thing.

Those two factors combined give me a totally unscientific impression that there are more folks out there who are "unconsciously incompetent".

 

[Kelpie]

Is a bigger boat inherently less safe, though? The maintenance budget might be spread more thinly, and the risk of personal injury in case of a mishap might be a bit higher (higher loads on rig, heavier spars etc).
But to counter that, less likely to be rolled, knocked down, pooped, or flooded. More likely to carry safety gear, have a bigger engine to get out of trouble, might carry a more capable tender which can lay a kedge etc etc.

I'm not convinced that a newbie today in a Bav 35 is less safe than my Grandad would have been in a Hurley 18. In fact I think it's the opposite.

 

[lustyd]

You missed the fact that the 35 footer will be out for less time. My Vivacity would see me out for many hours longer on any given passage compared to my new boat. That speed difference will increase exposure to risks quite a bit.
I'd have to disagree with RJJ about how people start sailing. Loads of prople get into it through dinghy sailing still, and I certainly started with a 20' Vivacity which I sailed for 10 years before upgrading to a 36 footer. If anything it gave me some bad habits I've had to get rid of to make myself safe on the big boat.

 

[Caraway]

There is a reference to a car getting through its MOT with lots of plastic metal, near the beginning.

Ah yes, but no MOT.