Should regulations be introduced for masts and rigging in the leisure market?

[Stemar]

There are now a frightening amount of sheep like idiots who believe they are going to be the next “La Vag” - and they will ultimately have to be protected from themselves.

How many will actually be protected from themselves? The UK demands inspections galore and makes owner refits next to impossible, so the sheep will just go somewhere else with less onerous rules. It won't make them any safer.

All the rules around cars, and the conditions around insurance haven't stopped idiots driving deathtraps.

 

[Tranona]

Around here a Contessa 32 snapped her mast in half and had to be towed in by the lifeboat just two days ago.

Cause: Rusted chainplate. So it’s not just rigging of course but also chainplates, tangs, and bottle screws.

An argument for unstayed rigs, or at least synthetic rigging, perhaps?

The current system may have worked well for decades. However, I am pessimistic. A decent proportion of the recent Youtoob generation of new sailors are so utterly clueless - and more importantly, unwilling or unable to learn - that they will cause more and more hassle and accidents over the coming years. Entirely due to a combination of laziness and narcissism.

This will force the authorities hand - to introduce boat licensing requirements as with cars, massively increased standards for insurance, restrictions everywhere, etc. There are now a frightening amount of sheep like idiots who believe they are going to be the next “La Vag” - and they will ultimately have to be protected from themselves.

mark my words..

Way over pessimistic. Boating is very, very safe compared with other leisure activities. The number of youtubers of the type you describe is tiny compared with the tens of thousands of sensible boat owners. Damage of the type you describe with the CO32 is rare, and indeed I am surprised that any owner of such a boat was unaware of the design and construction weakness of the chain plates on that particular type of boat. You are right, wire failure is often not the cause of rigs coming down, but fittings and attachments. Poor chain plate design was common in the early days of GRP construction when designers failed to understand that passing stainless steel through a GRP deck often created perfect conditions for crevice corrosion - made worse by inadequate sealing allowing water in. The CO32 is a good example, although the builder recognised it and would guess that most have now been fixed.

Sometimes insurers publish reasons for payouts and structural failures just do not feature as being significant. Theft, storm damage and third party claims dominate. Yacht insurance is still cheap for coastal sailors, particularly in the UK . I have just renewed mine for around £450 all risks for an agreed value of over £100k. Of course insurance gets more expensive if you move away from relatively safe coastal waters to areas of known higher risk, longer exposure and higher cost consequences of a claim. This means that many of the new age voyagers do not have all risks insurance.

There have been may attempts over the years to introduce licences and even compulsory registration and inspection in the UK. None have been successful for the simple reason that there is no credible evidence of a systemic problem, nor any evidence that safety for boats and people is any worse than in states that do have such legislation - in fact often the opposite.

Yes, so "mark your words" and place them with all the other doom mongers who have suggested the same over the 40+ years I have been involved in the marine industry.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Around here a Contessa 32 snapped her mast in half and had to be towed in by the lifeboat just two days ago.

Cause: Rusted chainplate. So it’s not just rigging of course but also chainplates, tangs, and bottle screws.

An argument for unstayed rigs, or at least synthetic rigging, perhaps?

The current system may have worked well for decades. However, I am pessimistic. A decent proportion of the recent Youtoob generation of new sailors are so utterly clueless - and more importantly, unwilling or unable to learn - that they will cause more and more hassle and accidents over the coming years. Entirely due to a combination of laziness and narcissism.

This will force the authorities hand - to introduce boat licensing requirements as with cars, massively increased standards for insurance, restrictions everywhere, etc. There are now a frightening amount of sheep like idiots who believe they are going to be the next “La Vag” - and they will ultimately have to be protected from themselves.

mark my words..

My dad taught himself to sail with 2 books ....



... fortunately YouTube wasn't around in the 70s to catalogue his exploits.

Nothing has changed .... in fact you could argue that "We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea" set a very dangerous precedent .... and could you imagine even trying to get the entrants to the Golden Globe Race of 1968 past the ARC scrutineers today?

Chill out ... if anything sailing is becoming safer for novices rather than more dangerous.

 

[mrming]

I’ve been racing yachts for 30 plus years in all kinds of weather. I’ve experienced one dismasting in all that time. The cause? The pin fell out of the forestay. Amazingly no damage to anything, we put the mast back up with the help of two adjacent (larger) boats in the marina and went back out racing that day. I’ve witnessed maybe a maximum of 5 dismastings on the race course over the years. All but one were bendy IOR rigs with runners where it comes with the territory. One was an IOR style masthead rig. As has been said above, losing the rig is relatively rare for coastal sailors and consequently any regulation would be more effort than it was worth.

 

[lustyd]

A decent proportion of the recent Youtoob generation of new sailors are so utterly clueless - and more importantly, unwilling or unable to learn - that they will cause more and more hassle and accidents over the coming years.

Completely out of touch. The YouTube generation are educating themselves with quality content thanks very much, and probably know considerably more than the previous generation who read a book and set sail hoping for the best. I’ve no idea what your problem might be with Vagabonde but I can only assume it’s jealousy because they are successful and young and living a life most can only dream of.

 

[brainstorm]

Absolutely ridiculous idea from a man with a vested interest. We live in enough of a nanny state already. No more regulations please! An open invitation for the RYA to set up another ridiculous working group!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... then it boils down to what is a competent person to inspect rigs, how is it defined, how is it verified that they are competent etc. It's a non starter which should be kicked into the long grass. The industry cant even agree what levels of competency are mandatory for surveyors.

 

[robtoujours]

Completely out of touch. The YouTube generation are educating themselves with quality content thanks very much, and probably know considerably more than the previous generation who read a book and set sail hoping for the best. I’ve no idea what your problem might be with Vagabonde but I can only assume it’s jealousy because they are successful and young and living a life most can only dream of.

SOME of the YT generation are educating themselves as you describe. SOME others are a danger to themselves and everyone else on the water and don’t want to understand that “living the dream” rests on a solid foundation of seamanship and hard work, because the videos make it look soo easy ..

La Vag themselves are fine, they’re experienced sailors and have worked very hard for their success. It’s the legions of people who think that it’s simple to replicate that success who I am referring to. Social media changes everything.

I do hope I am too pessimistic… but look to the continent where requirements for boat licenses have been introduced for many years to varying levels .. Things can become the new norm very quickly ..

 

[lustyd]

You think it’s somehow different to the Pardey’s? Or Columbus? There are more people for one reason and one reason only…there are more people these days!

 

[robtoujours]

Yup, more people, more pressure to regulate the sector .. just you wait ..

 

[capnsensible]

There are enough self appointed experts on here already without a government adding more......???

 

[Ceirwan]

Around here a Contessa 32 snapped her mast in half and had to be towed in by the lifeboat just two days ago.

Cause: Rusted chainplate. So it’s not just rigging of course but also chainplates, tangs, and bottle screws.

An argument for unstayed rigs, or at least synthetic rigging, perhaps?

The current system may have worked well for decades. However, I am pessimistic. A decent proportion of the recent Youtoob generation of new sailors are so utterly clueless - and more importantly, unwilling or unable to learn - that they will cause more and more hassle and accidents over the coming years. Entirely due to a combination of laziness and narcissism.

Not sure how synthetic rigging cures rusted chain-plates, & it is far more suspectible to neglect than stainless steel. (or just a sharp knife!)

As to the second point about the new generation, I think its more that the average age of a boat is a lot older, so these problems have had time to develop. There are plenty of old timers about that haven't done sweet fa maintenance on their boats for the last 20 years so I don't think its just a generational thing.

 

[robtoujours]

You’re probably right but there seems to be a big influx of new people all off a sudden.

Dyneema etc might be more susceptible to UV uncovered long-term but it’s not the tropics up here either. For chainplates Titanium would seem to be ideal - I believe the material is becoming more competitive price wise vis a vis stainless.

 

[lustyd]

Titanium has all kinds of issues once you get past the hype, plenty of early failures out there if you look. Dyneema rigging is fine for racing, but for cruising you need something you can't cut with a hotdog and some determination. Stainless rigging is good because it's really hard to chafe through!

 

[penfold]

Titanium is not price competitive with 316 and is unlikely to ever be; it's a bear to work and for consumer level boating what purpose is it serving? Chainplates need inspected regularly, making them from Ti won't change that.

 

[Tranona]

I do hope I am too pessimistic… but look to the continent where requirements for boat licenses have been introduced for many years to varying levels .. Things can become the new norm very quickly ..

Yes, most of Europe has regulations - just a consequence of having political and social systems that are based on rules to control what the population are allowed to do. Even after liberalisation the states and bureaucracy are unwilling to relinquish powers. Fortunately we live in a country with a very different underlying system that is based on identifying what you can't do rather than what you are allowed. No sign at all in the last 50 odd years, even with us having been drawn into the European orbit, of any political pressure to introduce such regulations, even though from time to time there are incidents that get activists going. Remember the fuss about drink/boating - even though the law enables regulations there has never been enough evidence that it is needed and plenty that rules would be unenforceable. So it goes back on the back burner. Likewise with boat registration. Last attempt was to link it to light dues but again failed to get any traction. On a wider front attempts were made to introduce licencing and registration EU wide. Roundly rejected by EU states unwilling to give up jealously guarded local powers to the EU.

As to an influx of new people into yachting which seems to concern you. First they have always been there but have just become more visible because of social media. Second most do not originate in the UK so why would any UK regulations have any impact? Third and related is the lack of any international organisation that has any interest in leisure yachting.

So, we will all bumble along not causing any significant problems that might excite activists to take up arms against us.

 

[zoidberg]

... then it boils down to what is a competent person to inspect rigs, how is it defined, how is it verified that they are competent etc.

'I’ve been racing and cruising yachts for 30 50 plus years in all kinds of weather. I’ve experienced one dismasting in all that time. The cause.....?'

On a 10m Danish trimaran ( not my boat ), very nearly new and purchased from the UK dealer - a rigger by trade. Oh, yes. The cause.
A missing toggle at the top of the forestay. Just wasn't fitted.

'You can bend stainless - once.'

If a case for more regulation is to be made, then surely it should relate to protecting the customer from incompetent and unscrupulous trademen?

 

[Neeves]

How are you defining insurance cover? In the UK 3rd party cover is insurance cover but only covers 3rd party claims.. Comprehensive cover includes your own vessel.

Same definition as you use. 3rd Party means your own yacht is not insured, 3rd parties are. Comprehensive covers you and them.

Jonathan

 

[Fanny Haddock]

Just looked for it and their dismasting was more along these lines.

Clearly we need masts redesigned strong enough to withstand striking an overhead obstruction. Somethingoughttobedoneaboutit. I'm writing to the Daily Express & my MP tomorrow. Think of the children!

BTW, if anyone wants an MOT for anything, I know a guy who will write one out for £100. Sadly gone are the days when he could pre-date it.

End irony.

 

[Laminar Flow]

'I’ve been racing and cruising yachts for 30 50 plus years in all kinds of weather. I’ve experienced one dismasting in all that time. The cause.....?'

On a 10m Danish trimaran ( not my boat ), very nearly new and purchased from the UK dealer - a rigger by trade. Oh, yes. The cause.
A missing toggle at the top of the forestay. Just wasn't fitted.

'You can bend stainless - once.'

If a case for more regulation is to be made, then surely it should relate to protecting the customer from incompetent and unscrupulous trademen?

Agreed.
My only serious rigging failure in some 60.000 miles was the handiwork of a "professional rigger" who failed to install a balance at the top of a twin headstay, the lot of which, consequently, came down mid ocean some 1500 miles from the nearest shore. Since that particular event my preferred approach has been one of informed self reliance.

The most frequent cause of rig failure is improper mast & rig trim and inept sail handling and no amount of overzealous officialdom will ever prevent that.

In normal circumstances it is actually fairly difficult to lose a standard, run of the mill rig, even intentionally. I'm sure many will remember YM's almost comical efforts to bring down the mast on an old Gypsy for an "what-to-do-when-you-lose-a-mast-at-sea" article. For all intents and purposes, a mast going by the side is in the same category of frequency as " Darling, I think the keel just dropped off".