Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)

[AntarcticPilot]

There was a high profile case that got yo the supreme Court in the US where the insurance refused to pay out when the motorboat sank, because the fire extinguishers were out of date. I never followed it to the conclusion.

Wasn't there also a Supreme Court case that considered the issue of companies "jurisdiction shopping" to ensure cases were heard in the State where the laws favoured them? I think it was disallowed, but I only take a passing interest in the weird interaction between Federal and State law!

 

[billskip]

You can use this argument for anything not installed by a competent person. Lead acid would be identical. If, as in another thread someone suggested that negligence is covered, then the negligence could be unknowingly installing lithium. Otherwise anything can be challenged so theres no difference.

And your point is?
Of course this argument can be used for anything, however my point is that when making a claim the loss adjuster can possibly make it very inconvenient for you to get a satisfactory settlement especially with the added possible third party environmental clean up costs.
People that think they are clever invariably end up with a loss.

 

[Supertramp]

Interesting thread.

For me the first priority is to not die whilst afloat (and to not damage other people or their property). Insurance is after the event.

The arguments are endless about technical competence and accreditation which the average DIY person will struggle to pass. Why not insist on an upgrade in fire suppression systems on board to match the new technologies? Lithium specific extinguishers (early days I know) and automatic detection systems are probably not (yet) standard on most private yachts. And they might just enable lives saved and damage reduced.

I was thinking about moving to lithium......

 

[geem]

Interesting thread.

For me the first priority is to not die whilst afloat (and to not damage other people or their property). Insurance is after the event.

The arguments are endless about technical competence and accreditation which the average DIY person will struggle to pass. Why not insist on an upgrade in fire suppression systems on board to match the new technologies? Lithium specific extinguishers (early days I know) and automatic detection systems are probably not (yet) standard on most private yachts. And they might just enable lives saved and damage reduced.

I was thinking about moving to lithium......

Is this for power tool, phone, laptop charging or lifepo4 domestic batteries?

 

[Supertramp]

Early days but my favoured solution is a standalone LiFePO4 battery and inverter charged battery to battery only when the engine is running. I don't have an inverter at present.

 

[Graham376]

There was a high profile case that got yo the supreme Court in the US where the insurance refused to pay out when the motorboat sank, because the fire extinguishers were out of date. I never followed it to the conclusion.

Being based in Portugal, our fire extinguishers have to be serviced annually by professional and failure to do so can lead to fine and impounding until compliant. I suspect there's the possibility of a fire claim being refused if owner considered negligent by not servicing extinguishers, wherever based.

 

[dunedin]

Interesting thread.

For me the first priority is to not die whilst afloat (and to not damage other people or their property). Insurance is after the event.

The arguments are endless about technical competence and accreditation which the average DIY person will struggle to pass. Why not insist on an upgrade in fire suppression systems on board to match the new technologies? Lithium specific extinguishers (early days I know) and automatic detection systems are probably not (yet) standard on most private yachts. And they might just enable lives saved and damage reduced.

I was thinking about moving to lithium......

I am certainly no expert personally, but one expert I spoke to suggested that the fire procedure on a superyacht with large LiFePO4 battery pack was to flood the battery area with sea water (of which there is an abundant supply). Hence batteries built into waterproof floodable area.
Would be very unpleasant gasses - but best way to extinguish a serious fire, as a method of last resort, he said.
Not sure if this is true, but I think there has been reference to floodable battery boxes when referring to recent standards?

 

[geem]

I am certainly no expert personally, but one expert I spoke to suggested that the fire procedure on a superyacht with large LiFePO4 battery pack was to flood the battery area with sea water (of which there is an abundant supply). Hence batteries built into waterproof floodable area.
Would be very unpleasant gasses - but best way to extinguish a serious fire, as a method of last resort, he said.
Not sure if this is true, but I think there has been reference to floodable battery boxes when referring to recent standards?

I know two super yachts well. Neither have any special extinguishing facilities associated with their lifepo4 batteries. They do have systems for their engine rooms, however

 

[dunedin]

I know two super yachts well. Neither have any special extinguishing facilities associated with their lifepo4 batteries. They do have systems for their engine rooms, however

Do they have electric propulsion batteries? I should have made clear this was for a vessel that had electric hybrid propulsion, so battery banks much bigger than just for domestic / “hotel” demand.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I am certainly no expert personally, but one expert I spoke to suggested that the fire procedure on a superyacht with large LiFePO4 battery pack was to flood the battery area with sea water (of which there is an abundant supply). Hence batteries built into waterproof floodable area.
Would be very unpleasant gasses - but best way to extinguish a serious fire, as a method of last resort, he said.
Not sure if this is true, but I think there has been reference to floodable battery boxes when referring to recent standards?

I thought the problem with Lithium battery fires was that water did NOT extinguish them?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I thought the problem with Lithium battery fires was that water did NOT extinguish them?

Water mist systems can cool the lithium ion battery and stop ignition. In addition water mist system in battery rooms now use inhibiting chemicals that mix with the mist. Water mist has more or less superseded clean agent and CO2 systems on new build ships (in my industry, oil and gas drilling) as they are lower cost to fit and maintain, as well as being highly effective. Systems are approved by Certifying Authorities.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360544223030633

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Water mist systems can cool the lithium ion battery and stop ignition. In addition water mist system in battery rooms now use inhibiting chemicals that mix with the mist. Water mist has more or less superseded clean agent and CO2 systems on new build ships (in my industry, oil and gas drilling) as they are lower cost to fit and maintain, as well as being highly effective. Systems are approved by Certifying Authorities.

Yes, but @dunedin was suggesting flooding batteries with water. Water mist is a very different matter.

 

[Molteni]

Let's clarify that Lithium IRON Phosphate (LiFePO4) are the batteries we're talking about here as replacements for Lead Acid. They are inherently safer than the Lithium ION batteries typically used in electric vehicles and phones/laptops etc.
All battery systems should be competently installed.

 

[st599]

Let's clarify that Lithium IRON Phosphate (LiFePO4) are the batteries we're talking about here as replacements for Lead Acid. They are inherently safer than the Lithium ION batteries typically used in electric vehicles and phones/laptops etc.

Sorry, that's not correct. LiFePO4 is a class of lithium ion batteries. So whilst they're safer than other classes, they're covered by rules written for Lithium Ion batteries. See Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

Li in it's non-ionic state reacts with water and combusts.

 

[Graham376]

I thought the problem with Lithium battery fires was that water did NOT extinguish them?

Maybe an unrealistic test but lithium + water = fire

 

[st599]

Maybe an unrealistic test but lithium + water = fire

Yep, that's why general batteries use lithium in it's more stable ionic state. LiFePO4, LiCoO2, LiMn2O4, Li2TiO3 and the rest are all lithium ion batteries with layers of Li+ ions.

 

[Sea Change]

Sorry, that's not correct. LiFePO4 is a class of lithium ion batteries. So whilst they're safer than other classes, they're covered by rules written for Lithium Ion batteries. See Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

Li in it's non ionic state reacts with water and combusts.

It's a regular discussion point.
Technically, yes, lithium ion encompasses various subcategories such as LiPo and LFP.
In practice, an awful lot of people seem to use Li ion to mean everything *except* LFP.
So it depends on whether you're talking technically or casually.
(Personally I prefer to just specify the exact chemistry, and if you don't know, call it lithium ion, even if that includes LFP).

 

[Molteni]

 

[st599]

He's wrong, LiFe04 is a lithium ion cathode. It's safer than other Li ion cathode materials but is still classed as Li-ion.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702114004118
What Are the Different Types of Lithium Batteries?
What is LFP? | LFP Battery

The issue is that many discuss LFP/LiFeO4 batteries as distinct from Li-ion as practically it's safer than other types but legally and technically it isn't distinct.

As said above, any practical battery with lithium in the title is a lithium ion battery. Non-ionic Lithium is reactive enough to immediately self combust.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

He's wrong, LiFe04 is a lithium ion cathode. It's safer than other Li ion cathode materials but is still classed as Li-ion.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702114004118
What Are the Different Types of Lithium Batteries?
What is LFP? | LFP Battery

The issue is that many discuss LFP/LiFeO4 batteries as distinct from Li-ion as practically it's safer than other types but legally and technically it isn't distinct.

As said above, any practical battery with lithium in the title is a lithium ion battery. Non-ionic Lithium is reactive enough to immediately self combust.

But the mechanism by which LI based batteries degrade involves dendrites of Lithium growing. Obviously, only a small amount of free lithium, but there is free lithium. A newly manufactured Li-ion battery has no free lithium, but a degraded one will.