davethedog
Well-Known Member
Thanks all and at present am thinking that the juice may not be worth the squeeze regarding the insurance sign off etc. the current gel batteries seem to be ok so may wait until they fail and then decide.
Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)
- Thread starter davethedog
- Start date
jakew009
Well-Known Member
I wish someone would go back to one of these insurance companies and ask what on earth they define as a professional marine electrician.
If it’s “someone with insurance” it seems pretty trivial to take out a marine trades insurance policy and declare yourself a professional.
If it’s “someone with insurance” it seems pretty trivial to take out a marine trades insurance policy and declare yourself a professional.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
Until the boat catches fire and sinks and your insurance is invalid due to lack of certified training.
Just to put some context, in the aviation world we have licensed engineers but whenever they qualify for a new airframe or engine they undergo training, that training will include some basic skills which they are well practiced in, for example crimping and they may well be examined on that.
When we got a new aircraft type all the engineers with sign off responsibility had to get qualified on type, I happened to do the course with some of them, it was a 12 week course of which we spent an entire day crimping in order to demonstrate we met the manufacturers standards.
So when your boat catches fire and the insurance company asks for the training and qualifications of the person who did the installations if the best you can provide is "I read the standards" I don't think that will pass muster.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I think that to get the insurance, the insurer would require evidence of your skills.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Competent Person Electrical is well defined within the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and UK Electricity and Work regulations. Google it.
Meanwhile BMF states: -
Marine Electrician Standard
It is pretty obvious that there are standards for competency as it is addressed by Government agencies, Acts, regulations and trade associations.
Meanwhile BMF states: -
Marine Electrician Standard
It is pretty obvious that there are standards for competency as it is addressed by Government agencies, Acts, regulations and trade associations.
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
I have googled it, and came across this government guidance. There does not appear to be a Competent Person Scheme for Marine Electricians. Circuit blown at the first fuse.
The British Marine quote and the document it comes from is mostly waffle but it does mention there is a Marine Electrician L3 Apprenticeship End Point Assessment (EPA) (in fact that is the title of the webpage) and it seems the EPA can be passed or failed after various assessments but it is not clear how rigorous these assessments are, or whether, for example, they specifically cover lithium battery installations. What if they don't?
More generally, we are stuck with what is the definition of a professional these days? Since it could be argued that nowadays everyone is 'a professional' (even including estate agents!), then in practice no one is a professional, because it has lost its discriminatory value. Or perhaps 'being professional' means being paid to do the job (which in turn implies a contract). But that still doesn't mean very much, if anything. It also rather misses the point, we are not so much interested in 'professional' as in competence, and anyone, including the well-informed and practically capable amateur, can be competent.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
To what "certified traing" do you refer ?
Boats are not aircraft.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Wrong ! The BMF is a trade organisation, their "qualifications" are meaningless.
doug748
Well-Known Member
As a professional marine electrician perhaps you can help us clear the fog Paul.
Would you sign off someone else's installation of this type? Or are you aware of any colleague/business who would?
Do you undertake, or would you consider taking on, this sort of instillation? Is there any industry specific training in this area?
.
jakew009
Well-Known Member
But there are literally zero qualifications required to be a marine electrician. Anyone can declare themselves a marine electrician and off they go.
Which of course means it’s impossible for your insurance to be invalidated due to a lack of “certified” training.
Heck there’s not even any legal qualifications required for someone to one on non domestic mains wiring.
jakew009
Well-Known Member
How does a professional marine electrician evidence their marine electrician skills in a way that a competent non professional wouldn’t be able to?
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
No. Because i would then inherit the responsibility for the work.
I have installed countless lead acid installation and modifications/upgrades. I have also installed several LifePO4 installations, including on my own boat.
There are no qualifications required to carry out such installations, or any other DC or AC installations on leisure craft. There are standards that new build boats have to conform to, but used boats do not have to. Although not required to do so, i work to those standards wherever possible.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
- training
- apprenticeships
- further education (collage or university)
- mentoring
- participation in continued professional development
- work experience
this is what already happens in the UK for hazardous processes. The Act mentioned earlier, is not prescriptive on training except where it needs to be, it states more or less what has to be done, what intent needs to be met.
nothing has to be demonstrated until there is need e.g. through a claim or an incident investigation. Those who need to ask the questions will use the UK regulatory frame work, including guidance and best practises to compare the installation against. It is not a difficult concept.
jakew009
Well-Known Member
I certainly can’t answer for Paul but I work in a totally different industry nothing to do with marine where we manufacture products that have lots of LiFePO4 batteries in them.
In principle I’d have no problem “signing off” someone else’s install on a boat.
For me that would mean:
a) the general condition of the boats wiring is in good condition. ie. I would be looking at more than just the lithium part. If the rest of it was a dogs dinner I’d have no confidence.
b) that the components used were of suitable provenance. I would be very suspicious if I saw cheap junk Chinese no name mega fuses or nasty Amazon fuse holders. Conversely if I saw known brand hardware and decent quality crimp terminals, I’d consider the guy had done his research and likely knew what he was doing.
This is obviously pretty subjective and you have to weigh up whether it’s a safety issue or just not how you’d like to do it.
c) that the quality of the workmanship was good. Have the crimps been done with a decent tool? Is everything sensibly labelled? If it looked a mess with no thought having gone into the layout, I’d dig deeper.
d) I’d likely “fail” it instantly if I saw crimps that had been done with a “hammer” crimper or if I saw any soldered battery wires.
e) I would want to see appropriate fusing. Again very subjective, but I would “request changes” it if there was a realistic failure scenario the fusing wouldn’t cover.
f) I’d “fail” it instantly if the guy had done anything whacky. For instance, whilst technically I know it’s fine to put LiFePO4 in parallel with lead acid, I’d expect them to be aware of the risks themselves. If they needed me to sign it off, it likely means they have no idea what they’re doing.
At that point I’d be quite happy to give it a clean bill of health. It would come with some caveats (ie. I haven’t checked every crimp), but I’d feel confident that it’s not dangerous.
In reality it’s absolutely no different to buying a secondhand boat. You surveyor or mechanic or whoever has to subjectively look at what’s there and decide if it’s acceptable or not.
For what it’s worth, I reckon I’d fail at least 75% of DIY lithium installs so maybe that’s another reason most people wouldn’t get involved
not worth the aggro.
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jakew009
Well-Known Member
Again, that’s all subjective right? There is no “certification” or “qualification”.
A competent DIY’er who’s wired a few boats before, perhaps has an engineering background and can demonstrate a high degree of practical skills could absolutely declare themselves a professional marine electrician and get insured.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Yes it is subjective. Maybe they could self declare. If their work is questioned for whatever reason and they have to prove their competency, which they subsequently do, and it turns out that it was faulty product, no probs, if it was a faulty installation, a problem.
I wouldn't self install, as I know my limits, I may be able to self learn, but I think that the probability of missing something important is high for me. On this forum, it certainly looks like there are very knowledgable people, who are not professionals, but have the skills and competency to self install. I don't think there is an issue with that.
Where the concern potentially has the shit to hit the fan is in the second hand boat market, where a potential or actual buyer can't prove that the LiFePO4 was installed professionally, or that the marina says their insurance company demands that all lithium ion installations on boats have to be professionally installed, or if your own insurance company states that your insurance is void, not just a restriction clause, if you fit lithium ion batteries that are not approved.
If there is market for signing off other peoples installation, corrective work, then it will develop. Until then DIYers who self install may have to live with insurance uncertainty, even if they are confident in their installation.
Anyway, that's my take on it, it could all be bullshit. However, I am an appointed technical authority for my discipline, appointed by my employer, responsible for sign off of work programs and execution of that work to the program, approving deviations and authorising ready for operations. There is no formal, or legal certification in my business to appoint me, but I could be taken to court in the UK to explain what happened. My appointment is through experience, some internal training, some exams on process, but that's it, and it is not cross industry approved, only current employer.
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chriscallender
Well-Known Member
I think if the insurance company specfies a professional marine electrician has to do the install, that simply means someone who makes their living from installing marine electrical systems ie it is their profession.
That person will then also have the legal liability for something going wrong whether they like it or not, and whether they have liability insurance or not. I suspect that is much more the angle insurance companies are coming from - they have a clear person to go after to recover any losses rather than trying to say the owner, who is also their customer, was negligent and they are not paying out. Owner negligence is more likely to be successfully appealed I think. It is just much cleaner for them, with a clear responsible person they don't really need to think about whether they are taking on extra risks, they can decide afterwards whether to go after the installer if there is a claim (and that would probably depend on the magnitude of the claim, circumstances etc).
All a bit unfortunate really, and perhaps not so logical either given all the other major things owners are allowed to do DIY. But good luck getting them to change anything
Chris
That person will then also have the legal liability for something going wrong whether they like it or not, and whether they have liability insurance or not. I suspect that is much more the angle insurance companies are coming from - they have a clear person to go after to recover any losses rather than trying to say the owner, who is also their customer, was negligent and they are not paying out. Owner negligence is more likely to be successfully appealed I think. It is just much cleaner for them, with a clear responsible person they don't really need to think about whether they are taking on extra risks, they can decide afterwards whether to go after the installer if there is a claim (and that would probably depend on the magnitude of the claim, circumstances etc).
All a bit unfortunate really, and perhaps not so logical either given all the other major things owners are allowed to do DIY. But good luck getting them to change anything
Chris
jakew009
Well-Known Member
How much of my living do I have to make from being a marine electrician? What if I am part time or if I have only just started up?
If thats genuinely the angle insurance companies are looking it’s even more ridiculous than I thought.
That line of thought would make it impossible for a “professional marine electrician” to work on their own boat.
But a competent DIY’er could sign off someone else’s install
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
But that whole system doesn't exist in the marine engineering world, at least it's not legally required for work on private yachts.
In the UK you are indeed allowed to hang out your shingle and take on marine electrical work on private yachts, on the basis of "I read the standards".
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
That of course is the broker's/underwriter's nirvana, just make sure you can pass the buck (ie claim) on to someone else. Easy life. It rather ignores the fact we pay our insurance premium to our insurer on the understanding that they will pay if we make a reasonable claim. Instead, they get all legalistic, insist on stooges to take the hit, and then waste our premiums chasing the stooges, when they could just have paid the claim.
Note I said reasonable claim, not any claim. If I do a DIY installation of a lithium battery and associated kit, documented with specs, calculations and photos, in such a way that I do not expect it to cause a problem (why would I install it if I thought it would cause a problem?), and then unexpectedly (hidden manufacturing defects?) it does cause a problem, then I expect my insurer to pay up.