Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)

[dunedin]

….. If I do a DIY installation of a lithium battery and associated kit, documented with specs, calculations and photos, in such a way that I do not expect it to cause a problem (why would I install it if I thought it would cause a problem?), and then unexpectedly (hidden manufacturing defects?) it does cause a problem, then I expect my insurer to pay up.

But if you failed to inform your insurer of the work done, or they had written condition saying such work need to be done “professionally” — then your expectation may not be fulfilled. So take care.

Insurance conditions don’t need to appear logical - it is up to the insurers. They could, for example, refuse to insure boats painted green. Perhaps they had correlated green hulls with owners taking less care (purely hypothetical example here, so green boat owners please don’t take offence). Or it could just be an underwriters whim. Either way, it is their rules and we either accept them or look elsewhere for cover.

 

[billskip]

If there is market for signing off other peoples installation, corrective work, then it will develop.

This became an issue back in the 90's building and refurbishment of property required electrical work which was accepted ...and then along come the insurance companies and trades people the required a qualified person to sign off..
It put a lot of very good skilled people out of work because the couldn't afford the time/expense or have ability to study and pass required tests/exams.
The cost of an electrician/ electrical installation went through the roof .....the sign-off of others work was the equivalent of the jobs profit....no it hasnt developed i dont think.

They could, for example, refuse to insure boats

Don't think they will refuse, they will take your money...but if you claim, the loss adjuster will screw you down, also any 3rd party claim for environmental clean up will put most on the street homeless

 

[chriscallender]

How much of my living do I have to make from being a marine electrician? What if I am part time or if I have only just started up?

If thats genuinely the angle insurance companies are looking it’s even more ridiculous than I thought.



That line of thought would make it impossible for a “professional marine electrician” to work on their own boat.

But a competent DIY’er could sign off someone else’s install

Well, if a person take money for doing a job and someone dies or a half million boat is a total loss because of something that person did (unlikely scenarios but...) I'm pretty sure the insurer is going after that person. It doesn't matter if they just started up, or its a part time odd hour here and there. I'm sure that's a consideration, it minimises the boat insurer's exposure to risks. So maybe an inexperienced "professional" is still preferred over an experienced / competent DIY person, daft though that seems.

I don't think our competent DIYer ever could sign off someone elses install. In building regs at least I've heard there isn't even any formal process of "signing off" even though it may be fairly common practice what it really means is that the "signer" is accepting the job as if they had done it themselves after inspecting it. So if I get my competent DIY mate to look over my installation and sign it off (however that would be documented...) it isn't different than if my competent mate had done the installation himself. And he's not a professional, so he can't do it himself any more than I can.

You're probably right about "professional marine electrican" boat owners. I'm not arguing these kind of terms make any sense at all, in fact its all bananas if you ask me. The thing is though, so much of the world is just about passing the buck to anyone unfortunate enough to be in line for that.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Easy answer, insure your boat with a company that it's whining about leaving your phone on charge when you're asleep.

What happens if you fall asleep when your phone/tablet/laptop etc are on charge and one of them catches fire ?

 

[billskip]

. In building regs at least I've heard there isn't even any formal process of "signing off"

It's not building regs that requires signing off its the insurance companies eg NHBC

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Easy answer, insure your boat with a company that isn't whining about leaving your phone on charge when you're asleep.

Bishop Skinner do not have restrictions on devices with lithium batteries less than 60Wh. That covers phones, tablets, most laptops and some tools, and all wireless marine instruments.

GJW apply their restrictions to all devices with lithium batteries. That will even includes wireless instruments like Tacktick/Raymarine wireless. So in theory you would have to remove your MHU transducers and displays every time you stepped off the boat. Can't have the risk of an unattended lithium button cell at the top of the mast exploding & burning down the marina!

Out of interest I rang GJW and asked if wireless instruments with a lithium battery and solar panel are caught by this exclusion. Their answer... Yes.

So if you have a wireless device made by Raymarine/Tacktick, Nasa, B&G or Garmin and are insured with GJW, give them a ring and tell them they are being a bit daft.

 

[geem]

It's not building regs that requires signing off its the insurance companies eg NHBC

It depends what building you are signing off. Buildings such as covered shopping centres get signed off by Building Control. The design team would accompany the BC officer such that we had all signed off on our own elements. Only then would the building be open to the public.

 

[chris-s]

So, after all this discussion, if a boat catches fire and most likely sinks, would it be clear that it had or had not been caused by/related to a lithium install? From fires I have seen, there isn’t a lot left to identify the cause.

 

[billskip]

So, after all this discussion, if a boat catches fire and most likely sinks, would it be clear that it had or had not been caused by/related to a lithium install? From fires I have seen, there isn’t a lot left to identify the cause.

Even so the fact that they had Li installed without advising the insurance company could cause a problem....long gone are the days of easy insurance claims.

 

[dunedin]

So, after all this discussion, if a boat catches fire and most likely sinks, would it be clear that it had or had not been caused by/related to a lithium install? From fires I have seen, there isn’t a lot left to identify the cause.

Doesn’t need to be the cause of the loss. But if any breach of insurance terms, insurers can say cover was invalid and use as reason for not paying out

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Doesn’t need to be the cause of the loss. But if any breach of insurance terms, insurers can say cover was invalid and use as reason for not paying out

That changed in the Insurance Act 2015 in the UK...

Insurers will not be able to rely on breach of a warranty or similar “risk mitigation term” to reject a claim, if the breach is not connected to the actual loss that has occurred.

 

[Dockhead]

But if you failed to inform your insurer of the work done, or they had written condition saying such work need to be done “professionally” — then your expectation may not be fulfilled. So take care.

Insurance conditions don’t need to appear logical - it is up to the insurers. They could, for example, refuse to insure boats painted green. Perhaps they had correlated green hulls with owners taking less care (purely hypothetical example here, so green boat owners please don’t take offence). Or it could just be an underwriters whim. Either way, it is their rules and we either accept them or look elsewhere for cover.

They are not allowed to deny a claim for a violation which was unrelated to the loss.

They can, however, refuse to renew your policy, or cancel your policy.

 

[lustyd]

Even so the fact that they had Li installed without advising the insurance company could cause a problem....long gone are the days of easy insurance claims.

You can use this argument for anything not installed by a competent person. Lead acid would be identical. If, as in another thread someone suggested that negligence is covered, then the negligence could be unknowingly installing lithium. Otherwise anything can be challenged so theres no difference.

 

[geem]

Doesn’t need to be the cause of the loss. But if any breach of insurance terms, insurers can say cover was invalid and use as reason for not paying out

It depends where hold insurance. This is definitely the case with US companies but not with UK companies. I am sure the UK law doesn't allow that. They can specifically exclude cover for lithium or any other element but they can't refuse a claim for a sunken yacht if for example, the fire extinguishers were out of date

 

[PaulRainbow]

So you hit a semi-submerged container and the boat sinks, but you're not covered because you have LifePO4 batteries ? ?

 

[Sea Change]

So you hit a semi-submerged container and the boat sinks, but you're not covered because you have LifePO4 batteries ? ?

Not any more. I believe this used to be the case, prior to the change in the law in 2015.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Not any more. I believe this used to be the case, prior to the change in the law in 2015.

I know, i was being sarcastic

 

[Tranona]

It depends where hold insurance. This is definitely the case with US companies but not with UK companies. I am sure the UK law doesn't allow that. They can specifically exclude cover for lithium or any other element but they can't refuse a claim for a sunken yacht if for example, the fire extinguishers were out of date

That is only true for some states in the US. For example I believe new York is one. Insurance is regulated by state not federally, but can be sold to out of state residents. So important to what state law your cover is written under.

As said better in Europe and UK Relevant section of 2015 Act here legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/4/section/11

 

[geem]

That is only true for some states in the US. For example I believe new York is one. Insurance is regulated by state not federally, but can be sold to out of state residents. So important to what state law your cover is written under.

As said better in Europe and UK Relevant section of 2015 Act here legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/4/section/11

There was a high profile case that got yo the supreme Court in the US where the insurance refused to pay out when the motorboat sank, because the fire extinguishers were out of date. I never followed it to the conclusion.

 

[Tranona]

There was a high profile case that got yo the supreme Court in the US where the insurance refused to pay out when the motorboat sank, because the fire extinguishers were out of date. I never followed it to the conclusion.

Yes that was the case I read up at the time. The insurer was "cheap" because it was underwritten by NY law that did allow such exclusions. I am not entirely sure whether anything has changed as Federal government can impose on state law.