Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)

[davethedog]

Hello all,

We are possibly thinking of replacing the current 510Ah 12V gel battery bank we have with LifePo4 and would look to install the system myself (as feel I am more than competent enough for this having done many 12v installations previously).

Have been in touch with our insurers who state the following:


"We would be grateful if you would provide some more details please regarding your possible LiFePO4 installation.

Please be advised that, with regard to the lithium battery system, this should be professionally specified and installed. It would be expected to be professionally signed off by a marine electrician.

The information underwriters would require, for their consideration and approval, is as follows: -

Please confirm the make, model and type of the / any lithium batteries, that the batteries are marine grade and are specified by their manufacturers as being suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control measures, any battery management system (BMS) and charging methods.


Please note that if the batteries are self-installed, Underwriters would place an exclusion on the policy until such a time that they are signed off by a professional marine electrician."


Now I am considering the following set up , as the current charging sources we have are all LifePo4 compatible etc:

LifePo4 12v batteries with built in BMS and bluetooth
Powering the domestic 12v systems and navigation etc (as the current gel batteries do)
Also going through the Mastervolt mass combi 12/100/2500 charger inverter to charge and also invert as required (as the current gel batteries do)
Currently have 820w solar running through 5 x Victron MPPT controllers and a smartsense to the gel batteries (this can be reconfigured easily enough for LifePo4).
Alternator charging will be a 115a 12v alternator that goes through a Victron Argofet (Alternator to Bow thruster batteries and also the other output to the start battery which will then have a 50A DC to DC charger to the LifePo4).

So, what is the electrical standard I would have to adhere to in order to then get an electrician to sign off the system?

Thanks

DTD

 

[geem]

Hello all,

We are possibly thinking of replacing the current 510Ah 12V gel battery bank we have with LifePo4 and would look to install the system myself (as feel I am more than competent enough for this having done many 12v installations previously).

Have been in touch with our insurers who state the following:


"We would be grateful if you would provide some more details please regarding your possible LiFePO4 installation.

Please be advised that, with regard to the lithium battery system, this should be professionally specified and installed. It would be expected to be professionally signed off by a marine electrician.

The information underwriters would require, for their consideration and approval, is as follows: -

Please confirm the make, model and type of the / any lithium batteries, that the batteries are marine grade and are specified by their manufacturers as being suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control measures, any battery management system (BMS) and charging methods.


Please note that if the batteries are self-installed, Underwriters would place an exclusion on the policy until such a time that they are signed off by a professional marine electrician."


Now I am considering the following set up , as the current charging sources we have are all LifePo4 compatible etc:

LifePo4 12v batteries with built in BMS and bluetooth
Powering the domestic 12v systems and navigation etc (as the current gel batteries do)
Also going through the Mastervolt mass combi 12/100/2500 charger inverter to charge and also invert as required (as the current gel batteries do)
Currently have 820w solar running through 5 x Victron MPPT controllers and a smartsense to the gel batteries (this can be reconfigured easily enough for LifePo4).
Alternator charging will be a 115a 12v alternator that goes through a Victron Argofet (Alternator to Bow thruster batteries and also the other output to the start battery which will then have a 50A DC to DC charger to the LifePo4).

So, what is the electrical standard I would have to adhere to in order to then get an electrician to sign off the system?

Thanks

DTD

You would need correctly sized cables between all devices. Each lithium battery should have an NH class fuse as close as possible to each battery. If that isn't achievable, sleeve the cable with some chafe resistant pipe between the positive battery terminal and the fuse. An isolator per battery.
Install -ve and +ve busbars for battery, inverter, switch panel and solar loads to connect to. Minimise connections to battery posts. 3 or less connections on any terminal. Ideally only one if possible.
Install a smart shunt to monitor SOC to at least one battery. Protect the inverter with a fuse or breaker, correctly rated for the inverter maximum output.
Only Install reputable batteries with good quality cells and bluetooth bms.
Some of the cheap drop in LifePo4 batteries available on the Internet should be called lie-thium. Check our Will Prowse on YouTube for some of his battery tear down videos. They often do not do what they say they will.
All of this high standard of installation should be carried out by a professional marine electrician regardless of whether you were installing LifePo4 or lead in an ideal world. Only the fusing is likely to be different for lead batteries although my own boat had NH fuses fitted from new 45 years ago, probably because it was an all electric boat, (no gas) and had 1000Ah of lead domestic batteries when built

 

[RunAgroundHard]

That’s a question to your insurance company. The MCA guidance on lithium, in the appendix gives a list of standards, that would be a good place to start.

Typically in upgrade projects for machinery, which I have managed, there would be a functional specification, a design specification, design calculations e.g. wire wire and fuse sizes, drawings, equipment bill of materials, installation work pack, commissioning works packs. All this gets approved at various stages, and then the installation signed off as installed. The people who do the signing are recognized as competent, some in house, some by external agencies. Now that is OTT for a small yacht, but nevertheless the intent is the same.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Finding someone to sign off every crimp connection you've made is going to be tricky.

 

[Trident]

I'd agree with all Geem has said except that for the extra few quid I'd go Class T fuses (an old debate and NH are fine and cheaper but the perceived wisdom is Class T and for the sake of a few extra pounds why give an insurer something to argue about.

However, it is going to be tough to get any marine electrician to sign off on something they have not done - especially if its for insurers who basically are looking for someone to lay off a claim on if it all goes wrong. I wouldn't do it. What I have done (being a marine electrician) is when working on big projects where gas lines needed replacing, is replace them as I worked but make none of the connections to appliances or cylinder etc so that a Gas Safe certified engineer can come in as tighten some olives and test for leaks and give a certificate. (And I stay legal by not doing something I'm not certified for)

So if you buy, install and run everything yourself but leave terminal ends in place but not crimped on and connected an electrician may well be happy to do that and sign off for you . An alternative might be a surveyor but most know sweet FA about electrics and frankly are quite expensive. Then again many electricians have not kept up to date with LiFePo installs and I've see many poorly done as well as getting absolutely incorrect information from many sellers of LiFePo batteries etc - even a famous one who many consider to be experts in electrical equipment as they make a lot themselves - they wouldn't even get a Sterling Silver medal from me let alone a gold

It sounds like you will also need to get a manufacturer of batteries to specifically state they are suitable for marine use in writing which surprisingly many very good and reputable manufacturers will currently not do. Sadly the insurers are about as well educated on this stuff as 50% of the internet are with their inability to recognise the dangers of some Lithium Ion chemistries against LifePo and yet have no prohibition on cheap Amazon 12v lap top chargers etc on board.

 

[Seastoke]

Why don’t you find a sparky you can work with you ie , meet on board ask him what you can do , like ordering all bits fitting solar , batteries etc. And he does tech stuff and signs off. Win win for both of you.

 

[Seastoke]

Ps where are you based , ask for recommendations .

 

[geem]

I'd agree with all Geem has said except that for the extra few quid I'd go Class T fuses (an old debate and NH are fine and cheaper but the perceived wisdom is Class T and for the sake of a few extra pounds why give an insurer something to argue about.

However, it is going to be tough to get any marine electrician to sign off on something they have not done - especially if its for insurers who basically are looking for someone to lay off a claim on if it all goes wrong. I wouldn't do it. What I have done (being a marine electrician) is when working on big projects where gas lines needed replacing, is replace them as I worked but make none of the connections to appliances or cylinder etc so that a Gas Safe certified engineer can come in as tighten some olives and test for leaks and give a certificate. (And I stay legal by not doing something I'm not certified for)

So if you buy, install and run everything yourself but leave terminal ends in place but not crimped on and connected an electrician may well be happy to do that and sign off for you . An alternative might be a surveyor but most know sweet FA about electrics and frankly are quite expensive. Then again many electricians have not kept up to date with LiFePo installs and I've see many poorly done as well as getting absolutely incorrect information from many sellers of LiFePo batteries etc - even a famous one who many consider to be experts in electrical equipment as they make a lot themselves - they wouldn't even get a Sterling Silver medal from me let alone a gold

It sounds like you will also need to get a manufacturer of batteries to specifically state they are suitable for marine use in writing which surprisingly many very good and reputable manufacturers will currently not do. Sadly the insurers are about as well educated on this stuff as 50% of the internet are with their inability to recognise the dangers of some Lithium Ion chemistries against LifePo and yet have no prohibition on cheap Amazon 12v lap top chargers etc on board.

Agreed but with regard to NH vs class T. Class T is an American standard not used in Europe. Lots of stuff on the Internet is Yank centric but it doesn't mean in Europe we need to adopt their standards. We have our own lithium standard and it would be appropriate to use a fuse with a European certification. NH fuses functionally do exactly the same thing as the Amercian class T. They are both high AIC with silica filled void around the fuse element. They are both quite large fuses especially if you need something like 300A AIC for a 12v systems. The design of a lithium installation needs to consider the space required for such a large fuse.
I actually have a class T fuse on the first battery I built and an NH on the second battery. There is little difference in the size of each fuse and holder. I will swap out the vastly over priced class T for an NH00 when I get a minute. I purchased the class T from the Caribbean because that's where I built my first battery. The NH fuse was vastly cheaper, purchased in the UK and I have to say, I prefer the NH. Far easier to pull the fuse than a class T

 

[[70521]]

While lots and lots has been posted on the subject, the crux of the question is what qualifications would an insurance company define somebody as a 'professional marine electrician'?

 

[geem]

While lots and lots has been posted on the subject, the crux of the question is what qualifications would an insurance company define somebody as a 'professional marine electrician'?

I am not a professional 'marine' electrician. I was advised by my insurance company that my lithium should be installed by a professional. I am a qualified mechanical and electrical engineer and i have worked professionally on lithium battery projects. I sent the insurance company a schedule of works that I completed to install my lithium system and a sent them photographs of the install. They were happy. I am not sure what the actual significance of the word marine is

 

[[70521]]

I am not a professional 'marine' electrician. I was advised by my insurance company that my lithium should be installed by a professional. I am a qualified mechanical and electrical engineer and i have worked professionally on lithium battery projects. I sent the insurance company a schedule of works that I completed to install my lithium system and a sent them photographs of the install. They were happy. I am not sure what the actual significance of the word marine is

Just quoting the text in the post fron the insurance company.

It is the phrase that confuses me. The marine insurance world need to get their act together and define what they mean.

If you look at aviation, I spent a little time working there, they have licenced engineers that sign things off. Everybody understands what is ment by that.

 

[aqua_sax]

Insurers love this sort of 'leave it to the professionals' crap. A good installation by a well informed owner will be very likely be (much) better than a bad 'professional marine electrician' installation. Unfortunately all too often 'leave it to the professionals' results in a bodge job (or worse), all the more so when there is no proper definition of what constitutes a professional.

An anecdote from a while back: I had an LPG installation professionally fitted on a coded vessel, and it duly got signed off literally in writing by a professional (I think CORGI in those days) gas engineer. Neither I nor the surveyor involved in the refit (who was generally excellent) made any comment - it had all been done professionally and be signed off, so it must be OK. But it wasn't. A few months after the installation I was looking at it and something bothered me. Then I realised what it was. The gas locker drains had elbows in them (to fit in a tight space) and the end result was an S trap. Since the through hulls were not that far above the waterline (to achieve the necessary drop), the end result was water in the S bend, creating just the sort of water trap more normally used to stop nasty pongs coming back from your domestic drains. On the face of it them may have looked like gas drains, but in practice they were not. I promptly redid the drains to ensure a constant drop.

It might be worth using this thread or another dedicated one to list insurers who do and don't accept DIY lithium installations. As it happens I am also thinking about converting to lithium for my domestic battery and my boat insurance renewal just happens to be less than a month away, providing an opportunity to bring up there position on DIY installations.

 

[Tranona]

Just quoting the text in the post fron the insurance company.

It is the phrase that confuses me. The marine insurance world need to get their act together and define what they mean.

If you look at aviation, I spent a little time working there, they have licenced engineers that sign things off. Everybody understands what is ment by that.

unlikely that there will be any pressure to establish a standard and define "professional". There really is no "problem" to solve - there has to be deaths and public outcry before government does anything about it. No pressure from makers of the batteries and associated equipment. In the UK at least no boat builders who might want a standard. So we are left with maybe trade bodies to club together and set a standard, but more "herding of cats".

So we are left with either the ABYC standard (which many people think is wrong) or waiting for the EU to have a go and it then it be adopted by the UK. However that will take ages and then only be stated at a high level and wait for the industry to establish the actual standard. All too difficult so we will just have to bumble along.

 

[Boathook]

There's been quite a few threads recently about "lithium batteries" and it does seem that insurance companies don't understand them and neither do I.
If they ban lithium aboard a boat, that rules out mobile phones, hand held VHF radios, cordless power tools and electric outboards.

I get the impression that most lithium fires are caused by "unbranded" batteries and chargers, or a mix of them, though I haven't seen any stats on it.

Maybe insurance companies will start to insist that you should only use batteries and chargers supplied by the manufactures for their product. This will cause a problem for mobile phones and tablets (possibly laptops?) that use a generic UBS charger, either mains or 12V.

 

[aqua_sax]

There's been quite a few threads recently about "lithium batteries" and it does seem that insurance companies don't understand them and neither do I.
If they ban lithium aboard a boat, that rules out mobile phones, hand held VHF radios, cordless power tools and electric outboards.

I get the impression that most lithium fires are caused by "unbranded" batteries and chargers, or a mix of them, though I haven't seen any stats on it.

Maybe insurance companies will start to insist that you should only use batteries and chargers supplied by the manufactures for their product. This will cause a problem for mobile phones and tablets (possibly laptops?) that use a generic UBS charger, either mains or 12V.

Too true about the unintended consequences but I don't think there is anything particularly esoteric about lithium batteries. The technology is as you correctly point out used very widely, as it is in electric cars etc. It's gone way beyond the early adopter phase, I suspect (but cannot yet quote chapter and verse as I have only just started looking into it) the risks and necessary counter measures are well known, eg don't use dodgy unknown brands for equipment and do make sure all cables are up to the job.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

From the insurers' point of view, signed off by a professional probably means "signed off by someone with professional indemnity insurance that covers this type of installation". I'd imagine that electricians with that kind of indemnity are scarcer than hen's teeth! The only ones that MIGHT be worth asking would be car technicians certified to work on EVs - but in general, they're only qualified for particular makes.

I've already pointed out that "professional" is meaningless without a specification of what skills and certifications are needed. I was and still could be a Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers. I could, quite correctly, put that on my business card. But I am quite definitely NOT an electrical or electronic engineer; it happens that IEEE is very wide ranging and they happen to be big in geoscience and remote sensing - which I do. But SMIEEE doesn't differentiate! And if I told the insurers I was a Senior Member of the IEEE, they might well accept it as a professional qualification, even though it isn't in my case!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Maybe insurance companies will start to insist that you should only use batteries and chargers supplied by the manufactures for their product. This will cause a problem for mobile phones and tablets (possibly laptops?) that use a generic UBS charger, either mains or 12V.

I note that the EU recently brought in regulations requiring all mobile phones to be charged by USB-C connections. Apple didn't like that, but reluctantly conceded.

 

[dunedin]

You will just get same answer as all the other recent threads on the same topic.

if i were you i would organise a professional prepared to either signoff your DIY or more likely do the electrical installation (with you doing the other / physical bits, like adjusting battery boxes, BEFORE buying anything.

Ir like I did decide to take the easier route and replace the Gel batteries like for like as if last as long as last set will probably outlast my ownership - and/or this insurance issue might be resolved before next change needed.

 

[[70521]]

unlikely that there will be any pressure to establish a standard and define "professional". There really is no "problem" to solve - there has to be deaths and public outcry before government does anything about it. No pressure from makers of the batteries and associated equipment. In the UK at least no boat builders who might want a standard. So we are left with maybe trade bodies to club together and set a standard, but more "herding of cats".

So we are left with either the ABYC standard (which many people think is wrong) or waiting for the EU to have a go and it then it be adopted by the UK. However that will take ages and then only be stated at a high level and wait for the industry to establish the actual standard. All too difficult so we will just have to bumble along.

That maybe so, but if there is no problem why is the insurance world asking for an installation to be signed off and not specifing the qualifications / experiance needed by a 'professional marine' sparky.

 

[Fredd]

Not sure if this will help the OP as we’ve in Ireland so possibly different rules , but as far as I’m aware my underwriters are in the UK .
I’m also thinking of upgrading my AGM batteries to lithium ,I checked my policy doc and there was no mention of Lithium but a line saying the company should be notified of any modifications to the boat so emailed my broker and explained I wanted to do . I specifically said LifePo4 batteries , that I would do the installation myself , that I would be getting advice and I would follow best practice.
This is what I got back .


Thanks for your patience with this referral,
Underwriting have advised that provided batteries are installed strictly in accordance with manufacturer's instructions and recommendations so as to ensure the boat remains in a seaworthy condition and safety is not compromised, replacing batteries as proposed would not affect the policy cover or terms. The onus to ensure correct installation rests with the boat owner.

To ensure compliance we would usually recommend that installation is undertaken or signed off by a suitably qualified professional.

We trust this has clarified our position in relation to your query, should you have any further queries do not hesitate to contact us.


So they recommend a professional but it is not a requirement.

A previous owner of my boat paid a lot of money to a “professional” to install a 3000w multiplus and 4 Lifeline AGM batteries and it was quite frankly dangerous.The boat passed 2 different pre purchase surveys with this installation , one survey in the UK and one here in Ireland.
I feel I’m well capable of doing the job and plan on going ahead with it .The only problem I see is if in the future I wanted to change insurance companies and a new one wouldn’t cover lithium or my current one changes their policies.

I really don’t understand the insurance companies thinking on this , when you look online for lithium batteries the big market is camper vans / motor homes and you don’t hear stories of vans going on fire on the sides of mountains or in caravan parks nor any issues with getting insurance on vans .