Second hand boat with a broken engine

[Slow_boat]

I took ownership of a 24 yr old boat at the weekend. I had had it surveyed but as it was out of the water only a 'visual check' of the engine. (Bukh 20)

First trip out, the engine ran for half an hour then stopped, having overheated. I got a tow back and the engine started again when it cooled down but I didn't run it as I didn't want to damage it further.

The mechanic has had a look and it ran for half an hour under load before overheating and cutting out again. He's started to take it apart and says that the raw water cooling pipes are badly corroded, as is the thermostat and there is a bad oil leak from a crack in the front casing. (I thought there was a lot of oil in the drip tray but the surveyor probably wouldn't have seen the crack because of its position) It is going to be very expensive, if not a write off.

If the engine would only run for half an hour, surely the previous owner knew of the problem? Maybe that is why they haven't used the boat this year.

Does anyone know how I stand legally? I feel that I've done all I could to safeguard myself but is it a case of 'buyer beware'?

 

[sarabande]

manifestly not fit for purpose. Perhaps ask around the local mechnaics to see if anyone has had dealings with the previous owner, and can throw light on any engine probs.

First Step: throw yourself on the mercy of Trading Standards.

Second Step. Don't give up. If something goes wrong at such an early stage, it pretty clear it's down to the previous owner.

(Was there a survey....? If so, did it come up with any comments ?)

Sad story but with patience you'll get a good result. Forum power is with you.

 

[moondancer]

I imagine it is caveat emptor unless the broker or owner said or wrote anything that described the engine in condition that can be proven as different.

I guess you could have paid extra for a lift out and mechanical check but not many would pay for that.

My instinct (and it is easy for me to say this as it isn't mine) is to expect to do quite a few things to a new secondhand boat and know that those have been done properly once they have.

 

[pvb]

[ QUOTE ]
If the engine would only run for half an hour, surely the previous owner knew of the problem? Maybe that is why they haven't used the boat this year.

[/ QUOTE ]That's very sad news for you - especially if you're faced with the prospect of having to replace the engine. If you bought through Fox's, I'd be tempted to go straight back to them via a solicitor's letter. Their description of the boat said "Engine serviced annually with history" and this doesn't seem to tally with your experience.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
(Was there a survey....? If so, did it come up with any comments ?)

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I guess you could have paid extra for a lift out

[/ QUOTE ] Anyone read the original post?

 

[gordonmillington]

Bukh is a very robust engine, yet very simple to work with. It is well worth working at if you have any mechanical apptitude and it has a virtually unlimited life, I suspect there cannot really be a lot wrong if it runs for half an hour before overheating. My own Bukh 20 is now 22 yeras old and runs very sweetly.

 

[moondancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Was there a survey....? If so, did it come up with any comments ?)

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I guess you could have paid extra for a lift out

[/ QUOTE ] Anyone read the original post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for missing a point - only trying to help. You can still test run an engine out of water as long as you have a hose and the right adaptor.

 

[JasB]

The previous owner could claim (possibly with his hand on his heart) that he never used the engine long enough for the overheating to become noticable, and possibly that the oil leak was not as bad when he last used it as it is now. If you hadn't had the survey, I would suggest you swallow your losses and run, but as you had a survey, there should be some right of redress?

 

[moondancer]

I have changed my mind. I think that for this to happen on the first use of the boat the owner has a morale obligation at least to help with some of the cost of repair. If he doesn't can you name and shame here without fear of legal redress???

 

[BAtoo]

FWIW; IMHO - boat surveys are only there for 2 reasons - to help screw some extra dosh of the vendor and to help get the boat insured.

Having stated that; anything you buy must be fit for purpose; this is not. You should have legal recourse here. GOOD LUCK with that!!! If not talk to trading standards.....
unless its declared or not warrented in the sale details.

(recently tried to get dosh off boat for knackered sails but they were declared original and so no go....)

Your survey is worthless in this respect unless you can argue the oil leak should have been easily seen and there fore commented upon - GOOD LUCK with that one too!!!.

Read your survey carefully; it will have so many ar)e covering phrases to make it pretty worthless.

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Just re-read this - seem to be pretty cynical this evening.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Norman_E]

I think this hinges on whether any representation was made to you about the condition of the engine. If this was a private sale/purchase then you may have little or no recourse. A decent sea trial of the boat would have revealed the problem, but its too late now. If you bought through a broker did you have any written representations about the boat? Even if the engine was said to have been serviced regularly that does not preclude it having or developing faults.

 

[chrishelen]

Hi, sorry to hear of this engine problem, re.. survey, my feelings are that surveyors will not give you a condition report on an engine unless asked and are qualified to do so,usualy a seperate survey, re..description of the boat. if you bought it of a broker i have a feeling they will try to blame the vendor for giving them duff info and that they will try to wash their hands of it, i think its buyer beware unfortunately. i am not sure of what action you can take without costing more money.the vendor will swear blind that the engine was fine when he had the boat and its a new fault, on the bright these engines are tough as old boots and it should be repairable.

 

[Slow_boat]

Thanks for comments so far. I've remembered that I'm a mamber of the RYA, so I'll give their legal department a call in the morning.

I don't really want to go naming and shaming, I just want my boat to work!

 

[dmcgannon]

There is likely very Little wrong with your engine, clean out the cooling system,you may have to remove the exhaust manifold to do this. also it may be a faulty thermostat

 

[Slow_boat]

I hope so, though the crack in the casing sounds serious. I should know in the morning.

 

[sarabande]

NTYMI, Mustafa Miss Tit !

AAMOF my reply is consonant with SB's request, IMHO, FWIW, IMPOV, so PDS at me.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[cliff]

Slow down there before you do or say someting you may later regret.

First - overheating could be down to a knackered impellor or partially blocked raw water intake or partially choked waterways. As you said it takes ½ an hour to overheat, so cannot be that serious. Change the impellor, check the intake is clear and flush the engine. Impellors do wear / break, intakes do get blocked and waterways do get clogged (raw water cooled engine) so going after the seller could leave you being the one named and shamed when he may not have been aware of the overheating problem.

As for the raw water pipes being badly corroded - I think you will find they are full of salt deposits - not corroded - easily removed.

Second - a cracked front casing? are you 100% sure it is cracked? be very careful here as both front and rear casings are damn near bullet proof on the DV20 / DV24. You say the front casing (behind the flywheel) is cracked, I could almost guarantee it is not cracked but rather either the crankshaft seal is worn and leaking or the counter weight shaft "seals" are loose (neither the "seals" nor the counter weight shafts rotate so the "seals" cannot wear - these "seals" comprise of a nylon ring, an intermediate nylon ring and a nylon thrust washer all held in place by an "Unbraco" countersunk bolt) Another "common" cause of leaks is the gaskets relaxing or the cover retaining bolts loosening (or both) - easy fix is to remove the flywheel and see exactly where the oil is coming from.

Even if it is cracked (which I strongly doubt) it is not a major expense to replace - I get the feeling your "mechanic" is all "doom and gloom" with the old sucking of teeth and "really expensive that Guv', better break out another thousand" (boat).

As for the rear housing you have a similar setup with shaft seals, counter weight "seals" and gaskets relaxing. Again the housing is pretty much "bullet proof".

IMHO you would have a pretty difficult job proving the previous owner deceived you unless you have something in writing saying the engine was in perfect working order when in reality you appear to have a couple of minor faults which may or may not have been evident to the previous owner.

Another place to look for an oil leak is the low oil pressure sender unit on the prot side of the engine - they are notorious for leaking. - Yet another place which is not oncommen for the Buhks to develop a little oil leak is at the back of the raw water pump - from there the oil runs down the front cover behind the flywheel and can foo folk into thinking there is something wrong with the front cover seals / gasket.

If you are not confident to assess the true situation yourself then get another to remove the flywheel and have a proper look - not your first "mechanic".
---------------------

Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity

 

[sailorman]

Thats good informed advise Cliff /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
good ereinit /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Slow_boat]

Cliff,

Thanks for that, very useful indeed.

As I said earlier, I have no intention of 'going after' the previous owner or 'nameing and shaming', I just want a boat that works.

The details from the broker say 'engine serviced annually with history', though I could find no service record in the paperwork, and the broker told me that it was by the mechanic who is now doing the work. I appreciate that the raw water system can salt up and corrode, particularly if the engine isn't used but I would have expected it to have been flushed through with fresh water rather than being left to sit when the boat stopped being used last season.

Now that I'm back home a hundred miles away I'm pretty much in the hands of the mechanic, who has a good reputation.

If it's just fair wear and tear, fair enough. As it stands now, though, it appears that the engine is not 'fit for purpose' Let's see what today brings.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[wingdiver]

Duncan
Just a thought -
Did you use a mechanic that you didn't know or 'one of your own'? If the former, forumites may be able to recommend an alternative one in the local area they know and trust for a second opinion.
It may be cheaper than taking the first advice received.
If it is the same answer, then you know where you stand for your next stage.
We all empathise with the situation and wish you all the best with resolving it.
D