Schengen Loophole.

[[3889]]

My Portuguese temporary 'residency card' is a sheet of A4 with an embossed stamp. I brandished it and successfully persuaded Italian border control not to stamp my passport when arriving by air, on the basis that I was in transit to Portugal by boat, which I was, but they had no means of knowing that

 

[Hoolie]

The EU has a publication "Practical Handbook for Border Guards" last published in 2019.

Section I-5.3 on p8 says seamen just visiting on commercial ships should not have their documentation stamped.

Section IV-3 on p98 deals with "checks on pleasure boating" defining the procedure for entering ports (crew lists etc), but as far as I can see, does not specify whether documentation should be stamped if the crew stay near their boat.

So this could be open to local interpretation at the various ports of the Schengen region!

 

[Tranona]

There is an article in this months PBO from a crew that sailed to Boulogne, which is not a point of entry, stayed in the marina overnight and "at no point were we asked for iur passports or ships papers". On their return trip they were boarded by French patrol and usual checks on paperwork and inspection of boat but no mention of their stay in France!

 

[dunedin]

Rather than “Schengen Loophole”, should this thread title be better “One local official in Ibiza makes up his own Schengen rules”?

And, as many have learnt, the next official you meet is quite likely to disagree entirely with the first person’s interpretation. And as not seeming based upon any solid written foundations, the second official could easily choose to impose penalties. Even if you feel these are unfair, difficult to (a) prove what the first person told you, and even more (b) to fight an official ruling giving a penalty in their local courts.

Do you feel lucky?

 

[Alicatt]

Interesting. I have never had reason to have mine scanned. It is biometric with fingerprints but the statement by migrationsverket that it cannot be used for identification is a puzzle. My driving licence is accepted within Sweden for ID but not the residence card.

If the card is scannable then it raises the question about why the passport should not be stamped or scanned to avoid a conflict with 90/180 on returning home inside Schengen. Surely, the ETIAS software could sort that out. Scan both the passport and the residence card and the software can sort out the implications of running out of 90 days in Schengen when I return home still in Schengen for as long as I like.

My feeling is that there is still only ONE Schengen and only one basic set of rules. If a residence card allows unlimitted stay in Schengen in a resident member state then that that will interfere mightily with any restriction in Schengen outside the resident state. The EU avoid any such conflict by issueing instructions to border officials to not stamp or scan EU residents. A typical kick the can down the road. Frankly, I could not care less. I consider that the EU has given me and others tacit approval to stay in EU Schengen for as long as my residence card is valid to allow me unlimited stay in Schengen at "home", Don't rock the boat. Treat the fact that border controls are instructed to allow me to come and go without interference as a big plus. This also impact the need to apply for a 7 Euro visa, because, by implication A resident already has one even for travel in the rest of EU.
EDIT ... much later ... Just realised that I am drifting the thread so I will stop it and shut up.

The residency card is not an ID card, it just states that you are a resident of that particular country, your passport is your ID "card" as mine says on it "Verblijfstitel" or Residency Permit in English, where as my wife's card says in multiple languages België IDENTITEITSKAART and in English Belgium Identity Card, both cards hold fingerprints and can be scanned, however there has been a big delay in the implementation of the updated software to read the Residency cards for ex UK citizens and not all locations can read them, there was about an 18 month delay in me receiving my card after the application for it, mainly waiting for the card readers to be updated in my local council office. The other thing is that the contacts for the chip are on the opposite side of the card compared with the ID card, the ID card has them on the photo side and the residency card on the reverse side.

 

[BurnitBlue]

The residency card is not an ID card, it just states that you are a resident of that particular country, your passport is your ID "card" as mine says on it "Verblijfstitel" or Residency Permit in English, where as my wife's card says in multiple languages België IDENTITEITSKAART and in English Belgium Identity Card, both cards hold fingerprints and can be scanned, however there has been a big delay in the implementation of the updated software to read the Residency cards for ex UK citizens and not all locations can read them, there was about an 18 month delay in me receiving my card after the application for it, mainly waiting for the card readers to be updated in my local council office. The other thing is that the contacts for the chip are on the opposite side of the card compared with the ID card, the ID card has them on the photo side and the residency card on the reverse side.

Exactly what migrationsverket have been telling me since I got the thing. I got my first one in 1996 when passport had a permanent visa stamped in it. It has been all I needed. The driving licence was usefull and a convenient way to deal with chemists, tax people, local library etc. Foto and personal number and present address easily transferred to the recipient. It was just a puzzle for me that the NEW resident card was useless as ID and not accepted. Seeing your explanation that there is an ongoing difficulty with ETIAS not being able to process the scanning does not surprise me. Mine is totally in Swedish. No doubt others are in any of the other 26 languages and maybe 26 different formatts. Thanks for joining the dots. I wander if they will ALL be scannable by 2023.

For me, this could be problematic one day, as airlines do not register the Residency card only my British passport which could cause a conflict with Swedens entry rules which would not apply to residents. The airlines are keen to stop people boarding if there is a chance they might have to carry me onwards for free occupying someone elses booked seat.

 

[goeasy123]

Rather than “Schengen Loophole”, should this thread title be better “One local official in Ibiza makes up his own Schengen rules”?

And, as many have learnt, the next official you meet is quite likely to disagree entirely with the first person’s interpretation. And as not seeming based upon any solid written foundations, the second official could easily choose to impose penalties. Even if you feel these are unfair, difficult to (a) prove what the first person told you, and even more (b) to fight an official ruling giving a penalty in their local courts.

Do you feel lucky?

There are cases of the same or similar judgements in the Rias, The Canaries, and A Coruna. A conversation with a senior official on the eastern mainland of Spain suggested that EU laws didn't suit the local economic conditions and that the authorities were generally apt to find an interpretation of those laws that suited the conditions.... rather than "One local official...".

 

[Tranona]

That has always been the problem with the EU. The centralised "rule making" through Directives that are often poorly worded political compromises then relying on each state to implement them within their own legal system and governing structures. Inevitably the common rules are often at odds with the priorities of individual states, particularly those that have traditionally devolved power to smaller units of government. The further the local implementation of EU rules is away from where the rules are made the more likely it is to reflect local interests.

 

[BurnitBlue]

The ETIAS system is only an advisory service to border officials. It is too complex with variables to the basic ID passport for to be an ON/OFF gate for entry.. Residency, visa issues for students, disabled visitors, Important VIP on conference or meetings, political sanctions etc and the list goes on and on.

Any body can see the panic at those airport automatic boarding pass gates. OK if a bar-code on paper is scanned. Many times not OK for the different size of phones, tablets, etc. The barrier will not lift until the "watcher" intervenes by holding the passengers device some distance above the scanner. For instance.

The problem as I see it is that a border official in one member state can apply a different discretionary opinion on entry, to a different discretionary opinion by another border official on exit. Resulting in on the spot fines. Then there is the embedded data absorbed by ETIAS regarding the various variable time allowance. 90/180, 180/360 etc. Can ETIAS apply non-discretionary bans for entry due to a flagged overstay?

 

[st599]

The ETIAS system is only an advisory service to border officials. It is too complex with variables to the basic ID passport for to be an ON/OFF gate for entry.. Residency, visa issues for students, disabled visitors, Important VIP on conference or meetings, political sanctions etc and the list goes on and on.

Any body can see the panic at those airport automatic boarding pass gates. OK if a bar-code on paper is scanned. Many times not OK for the different size of phones, tablets, etc. The barrier will not lift until the "watcher" intervenes by holding the passengers device some distance above the scanner. For instance.

The problem as I see it is that a border official in one member state can apply a different discretionary opinion on entry, to a different discretionary opinion by another border official on exit. Resulting in on the spot fines. Then there is the embedded data absorbed by ETIAS regarding the various variable time allowance. 90/180, 180/360 etc. Can ETIAS apply non-discretionary bans for entry due to a flagged overstay?

ETIAS is the new visa waiver system, EES is the new automated border system.

EES will automatically flag overstays but I presume it will be up to the border guard to deal with that. Not sure what will happen if, for instance, the machines are rolled out to marinas and it flags that you're an overstayer. Presumably the local constabulary will be put on your case.

 

[BurnitBlue]

ETIAS is the new visa waiver system, EES is the new automated border system.

EES will automatically flag overstays but I presume it will be up to the border guard to deal with that. Not sure what will happen if, for instance, the machines are rolled out to marinas and it flags that you're an overstayer. Presumably the local constabulary will be put on your case.

Thanks for the info that it is EES (European Entry System?) That holds the power.

Anyway, not until 2023 while even then there will be a 6 month moritorium added to that. (if that is the right word) no implementation on penalties as a grace period.

Will marinas have discretion?

 

[Graham376]

ETIAS is the new visa waiver system, EES is the new automated border system.

EES will automatically flag overstays but I presume it will be up to the border guard to deal with that. Not sure what will happen if, for instance, the machines are rolled out to marinas and it flags that you're an overstayer. Presumably the local constabulary will be put on your case.

Although ETIAS is said to be a "visa waiver" not a visa, it appears to have the same function by determining whether you get the key to enter or not. ETIAS can be refused or revoked under some circumstances so it's not just a 100% guaranteed formality. Why would an ETIAS be refused? - ETIAS.COM

Once there, EES will be the problem for over stayers. Fines and/or deportation will be the penalties plus variable time reentry bans for serious offenders . What will happen to the boat if the owner/skipper is to be deported? It seems each country can handle it differently. Brits Overstaying EU's 90/180 Days Rule to Face Penalties - SchengenVisaInfo.com

 

[st599]

Plus of course the UK is supposedly rolling out an EES style system (although it's delayed) so when returning to the UK on your yacht you'll have to arrive at a scanner location.

 

[Beneteau381]

One thing we have learnt in Portugal very early on is that all EU country rules are open to local interpretation!

Love it at Faro where they invariably say, "Welcome Home"

 

[KeelsonGraham]

No such luck at A Coruna for us. The Police HQ was only too happy to stamp us into Schengen.

 

[Seastoke]

Why are people so adamant about breaking rules,

 

[greeny]

A loophole is a way to avoid it. Not breaking the law but a legal way to circumvent it. Maybe .

 

[Seastoke]

A loophole is a way to avoid it. Not breaking the law but a legal way to circumvent it. Maybe .

Well if you can’t prove how long you have been in the Zone , it’s breaking the 90 day rule = law.

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Well if you can’t prove how long you have been in the Zone , it’s breaking the 90 day rule = law.

Err, no. The law is a maximum of 90 days in any 180 day period. Evidence and proof don’t come into it, unless your length of stay is contested or queried. You might need evidence or proof to prove that you haven’t broken the law. But don’t confuse the two.

In practical terms the situation is fluid. For example if you arrive in Brest on Friday evening and leave before 08:30 on Monday morning, there’s no way you can be stamped in and out of Schengen because the Douane office is closed. Same in A Coruna, Spain. But there’s no national or EU law that says you aren’t allowed to arrive in a Port of Entry outside of normal working hours.

Furthermore, when we arrived in A Coruna on a Friday afternoon, the Police HQ was closed. We dutiful reported the correct date for our arrival when we went to Police HQ on the Monday. Nevertheless, they dated our arrival for Monday.

Are we breaking the law if we don’t count those two unrecorded days in our calendar. Who cares.

 

[greeny]

Well if you can’t prove how long you have been in the Zone , it’s breaking the 90 day rule = law.

I don't see anything in the law that says you have to actually prove your time in. That is done by the authorities system of monitoring. As long as you're not "sneaking" around the system to actively avoid a stamp and it's the authorities that are choosing not to stamp you then what else do you want someone to do. Can you please show me the quote from law or guideline. Seeing it in writing would help me greatly to gain a better understanding.