Schengen Loophole.

[Star-Lord]

Not to make anyone feel jealous or anything but I have found my own loophole! Discovered last year my late fathers mother was Irish (she was never talked about - after seeing death certificate needed for passport application it all made sense - she died in the 1920’s) My passport application was approved about 4 weeks ago so now just waiting to be European again. I used a Dublin solicitor to sort everything out.

 

[colind3782]

Not to make anyone feel jealous or anything but I have found my own loophole! Discovered last year my late fathers mother was Irish (she was never talked about - after seeing death certificate needed for passport application it all made sense - she died in the 1920’s) My passport application was approved about 4 weeks ago so now just waiting to be European again. I used a Dublin solicitor to sort everything out.

Gibson Associates?

 

[Star-Lord]

Gibson Associates?

No, a family friend.

 

[Seven Spades]

Ok so there is an international convention that seamen are not considered to have entered a country if their visits to shore are "boat business". Sop you are not allowed more that x miles from the boat and you are not allowed to do anything that can be considered tourism.

The problem has arisen since Brexit because everyone has been asking what the rules are so they have made up some new ones and excluded leisure sailors. Now you will need a seaman's hand book and a contract of employment.

It is doable if your boat is coded and you can argue you are self employed to paying guests but it may open a different can of worms.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Ok so there is an international convention that seamen are not considered to have entered a country if their visits to shore are "boat business". Sop you are not allowed more that x miles from the boat and you are not allowed to do anything that can be considered tourism.

The problem has arisen since Brexit because everyone has been asking what the rules are so they have made up some new ones and excluded leisure sailors. Now you will need a seaman's hand book and a contract of employment.

It is doable if your boat is coded and you can argue you are self employed to paying guests but it may open a different can of worms.

We have US fnends who have seamen passport who have cruisered for over 10 years without problem.

 

[nortada]

Ok so there is an international convention that seamen are not considered to have entered a country if their visits to shore are "boat business". Sop you are not allowed more that x miles from the boat and you are not allowed to do anything that can be considered tourism.

The problem has arisen since Brexit because everyone has been asking what the rules are so they have made up some new ones and excluded leisure sailors. Now you will need a seaman's hand book and a contract of employment.

It is doable if your boat is coded and you can argue you are self employed to paying guests but it may open a different can of worms.

At one point we were a coded boat and Yachtmasters with commercial endorsements and all of the other boxes ticked doing skippered charter.

Potential problems, income tax liability, matriculation and circulation tax, regular boat inspections by a number of agencies and there are plenty more so unless totally bonafide, I would not try this one.

Bottom line on a good day any of these loopholes may work, until you come up against an official who doesn’t share your interpretation of the rules. ???

 

[Graham376]

Flew into Lisbon this evening, electronic readers in use for UK and EU arrivals but had to pass a desk afterwards where UK passports were stamped except for those with proof of residence.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Flew into Lisbon this evening, electronic readers in use for UK and EU arrivals but had to pass a desk afterwards where UK passports were stamped except for those with proof of residence.

This aimes directly at the thread title about loopholes. Residency of a Schengen Member State. An issue that only effects a tiny proportion of the millions of tourists that fly into Schengen so in effect becomes a non-event loophole that may be about to close.

It is logical that if a resident of a different member State (for instance, Sweden) flies into Portugal from a non-EU country (for instance UK) they will get their passport stamped because as far as Portugal is concerned that passport falls under the 90/180 rule just like any other tourist passport.

Presently, if that flight originates from another EU Schengen State those passengers get nowhere near a passport check.

I have been "flying" into Greece from Sweden for years without showing my passport or residence card to anyone. Before or after Brexit. It would appear to me that this may change if automatic scanning of all passports (no custom or immigration staff needed) if a simple machine can scan all passports at ALL gates withot extra cost to the host country it will be implemented. What government can resist a free control check on passengers?

BUT, there is now the business that EU residents of any Schengen Member State do not need to apply for that 7-Euro Visa. So it still seems that if a resident enters the EU via his country of residence, they are inside EU and the loophole is (or maybe) still active. As said, a non-event for most tourists so who will care?.

 

[westernman]

Presently, if that flight originates from another EU Schengen State those passengers get nowhere near a passport check.

But I am pretty sure the authorities have access to the flight passenger manifests of airlines. So they don't need passport control to know when you were in the country. Or even other Schengen countries.

I am pretty sure that is the case as I had a discussion with a senior person from the French DGSI General Directorate for Internal Security - Wikipedia (i.e. a professional spy) and he knew exactly where I had been. We talk to him from time to time to check up on our potential business partners.

[This is because my company develops some key technology which is used by the French defence industry and is important for European sovereignty]

They know a lot more about you and what you are up to than you would like to think.

You should be paranoid.

 

[BurnitBlue]

But I am pretty sure the authorities have access to the flight passenger manifests of airlines. So they don't need passport control to know when you were in the country. Or even other Schengen countries.

I am pretty sure that is the case as I had a discussion with a senior person from the French DGSI General Directorate for Internal Security - Wikipedia (i.e. a professional spy) and he knew exactly where I had been. We talk to him from time to time to check up on our potential business partners.

[This is because my company develops some key technology which is used by the French defence industry and is important for European sovereignty]

They know a lot more about you and what you are up to than you would like to think.

You should be paranoid.

It is worse than that. During my application for Swedish residency, after Brexit, despite me living there for over twenty years i still had to follow the same route which involved bank statements etc. I almost came unstuck regarding the 5 years previous continuous residence without a break. During one of the interviews it was pointed out me that according to my bank statements i booked flights to Greece the year before which were supported by credit card withdrawels from the Airport bus company that I actually went to the airport slightly outside the 6 month limit for absence from Sweden.

Sweden is a cashless society so they could prove that I used my credit card in Greece for groceries etc and nothing bought in Sweden. I was amazed. The woman then laughed to my relief and ticked all the boxes. I think she was just having fun yet demonstrating that they can if tvey want track my every movement. I was lucky because Covid forced me to make more than one trip to Greece and the dates were very close and debatable. I also used ATM machines in Greece so not a complete picture.

This illustrates the enormous concern about linked AI systems on individual freedoms.

 

[Graham376]

It is logical that if a resident of a different member State (for instance, Sweden) flies into Portugal from a non-EU country (for instance UK) they will get their passport stamped because as far as Portugal is concerned that passport falls under the 90/180 rule just like any other tourist passport.

That shouldn't be the case. Obviously, when entering Schengen area from outside, everyone has to pass through immigration control but EU rules are specific that returning citizens and residents and residents in transit should not have their passports stamped. They are not subject to the 90/180 rule.

Listening to passengers, a large number were Portuguese and what did surprise me was not having to exit UK via border control. Just a quick glance at passports and boarding card by ground staff at gate.

 

[BurnitBlue]

That shouldn't be the case. Obviously, when entering Schengen area from outside, everyone has to pass through immigration control but EU rules are specific that returning citizens and residents and residents in transit should not have their passports stamped. They are not subject to the 90/180 rule.

Listening to passengers, a large number were Portuguese and what did surprise me was not having to exit UK via border control. Just a quick glance at passports and boarding card by ground staff at gate.

Yes, I agree. Residents in transit should not have their passports stamped under the present transit rule. But, that must only apply to residents in transit to their resident member state, The resident in transit can, by the rules, travel through as many Schengen states as they wish as long as they complete the transit inside the 90/180 limit. You wrote that residents in transit are not subject to the 90/180 rule. That is a definite loophole if true but I suspect that 90180 will apply to residents in transit.

Otherwise, a resident ln transit from outside the EU has been given total freedom of movement with the same rights as an EU citizen. The resident cannot be in transit if he starts from his resident state so cannot exceed 90/180. This boggles the mind. If a resident is in transit from outside the EU how will anyone know where he started from if neither passports are stamped. Maybe that is actually the unspoken plan. Keep quiet and accept this obvious anomoly. Enjoy it.

OTOH, Just waiting for a border guard to make a mistake and stamp the residents passport, which may require exit from the EU before the 90180 period to reset the clock so the resident can go home to his resident state without the clock still running. It will happen, and often, because a resident's passport outside his country of residence is basically just another tourist under 90/180 restriction. I am only considering UK passports here. I have no idea what other countries have negotiated.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes, I agree. Residents in transit should not have their passports stamped under the present transit rule. But, that must only apply to residents in transit to their resident member state, The resident in transit can, by the rules, travel through as many Schengen states as they wish as long as they complete the transit inside the 90/180 limit. You wrote that residents in transit are not subject to the 90/180 rule. That is a definite loophole if true but I suspect that 90180 will apply to residents in transit.

Otherwise, a resident ln transit from outside the EU has been given total freedom of movement with the same rights as an EU citizen. The resident cannot be in transit if he starts from his resident state so cannot exceed 90/180. This boggles the mind. If a resident is in transit from outside the EU how will anyone know where he started from if neither passports are stamped. Maybe that is actually the unspoken plan. Keep quiet and accept this obvious anomoly. Enjoy it.

OTOH, Just waiting for a border guard to make a mistake and stamp the residents passport, which may require exit from the EU before the 90180 period to reset the clock so the resident can go home to his resident state without the clock still running. It will happen, and often, because a resident's passport outside his country of residence is basically just another tourist under 90/180 restriction. I am only considering UK passports here. I have no idea what other countries have negotiated.

Perhaps he gets his passport stamped on entry and then gets it stamped again with an exit stamp once he arrives in his country of residence and is then covered by his residence card.

 

[Kelpie]

Not to make anyone feel jealous or anything but I have found my own loophole! Discovered last year my late fathers mother was Irish (she was never talked about - after seeing death certificate needed for passport application it all made sense - she died in the 1920’s) My passport application was approved about 4 weeks ago so now just waiting to be European again. I used a Dublin solicitor to sort everything out.

That's interesting.
I had to get my Irish passport renewed during lockdown and it took 8 months.
My wife is eligible to apply for one (Irish born grandparent), but would first have to apply for a Foreign Births Registration, as she has not previously held an Irish passport. She was told that the office handling that was closed and to ask again in 18 months time. So we were looking at a two year wait potentially for the whole process.

Have you now passed the FBR part of the process? How long do you think it will be in total from singing, to receiving the passport?

 

[BurnitBlue]

Perhaps he gets his passport stamped on entry and then gets it stamped again with an exit stamp once he arrives in his country of residence and is then covered by his residence card.

The point of Graham's post which I agree with is that at present an inbound flight from outside the EU will have passport control at the gate. This will be the last time a tourist or resident will see a passport control officer until he exits the EU again. This is because all internal flights in the EU are considered under freedom of movement with no passport checks at internal gates. This is no problem for the normal tourist because he must pass an external gate on his way home to exit the EU. But it is a problem for a resident who may not leave the EU for years because he lives inside the borders. If his passport is stamped on entry he has a problem getting an exit stamp when he has no exit flight booked, no boarding pass, no luggage security. Been there two years ago and it was a nightmare.

We have to wait until EES rules pan out when implemented next year so we can see how it will work in the future. In the meantime do not get an entry stamp in your passport. Actually, I have no idea what the difference between a stamp in the passport and a biometric scan into a long term data base is.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The point of Graham's post which I agree with is that at present an inbound flight from outside the EU will have passport control at the gate. This will be the last time a tourist or resident will see a passport control officer until he exits the EU again. This is because all internal flights in the EU are considered under freedom of movement with no passport checks at internal gates. This is no problem for the normal tourist because he must pass an external gate on his way home to exit the EU. But it is a problem for a resident who may not leave the EU for years because he lives inside the borders. If his passport is stamped on entry he has a problem getting an exit stamp when he has no exit flight booked, no boarding pass, no luggage security. Been there two years ago and it was a nightmare.

We have to wait until EES rules pan out when implemented next year so we can see how it will work in the future. In the meantime do not get an entry stamp in your passport. Actually, I have no idea what the difference between a stamp in the passport and a biometric scan into a long term data base is.

Hasn't it been said that if you present your residency card along with your passport on entry then your passport won't get stamped.
If transiting through a no resident Schengen country to your EU country of residence then you will pass a boarder which unless you go out of your way to make sure it's an unmanned one then there will be customs officials that will be able to give you an exit stamp for the country you are leaving.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Hasn't it been said that if you present your residency card along with your passport on entry then your passport won't get stamped.
If transiting through a no resident Schengen country to your EU country of residence then you will pass a boarder which unless you go out of your way to make sure it's an unmanned one then there will be customs officials that will be able to give you an exit stamp for the country you are leaving.

Absolutely, the system works OK with the resident card informing the immigration official that he should not stamp the passport because it may cause problems for the resident back home where he has unlimited (actually 5 years) renewable stay in Schengen.

As far as I know, it is impossible for a person to get an exit stamp from immigration unless that person is actually leaving the EU on a scheduled flight. Otherwise an overstayer could just stick around for months without record if he can just check out without actually leaving. These rules are to control the 25 million tourists not just 200 or so EU residents.

If you read my reply to Graham I challenged his assertion that a resident in transit did not come under the 90/180 rule. I hoped it was true because that would be a loophole for any resident to claim transit and virtually claim total freedom of movement. I frankly don't think that is the case as the existing machinery of 90/180 also applies to residents in transit and allows them normal access to get home even via all 26 member states. Three month is quite sufficient for a resident to make his way home if his passport is not stamped. If it is stamped even at the port of entry, the resident would even have problems if that country was his final destination.

My question at the start of this thread was if the resident card which is biometric was scanned at the same time as the passport was scanned the Etias ESS software could take care of it by removing the entry stamp and stopping any loophole dead as a door nail. The answer I got seemed to imply that the resident card is only one of many such exceptions and there is no standard throughout the EU's 26 Schengen members. So the software is continually being delayed trying to get "perfect" for use.

 

[Graham376]

If you read my reply to Graham I challenged his assertion that a resident in transit did not come under the 90/180 rule. I hoped it was true because that would be a loophole for any resident to claim transit and virtually claim total freedom of movement. I frankly don't think that is the case as the existing machinery of 90/180 also applies to residents in transit and allows them normal access to get home even via all 26 member states. Three month is quite sufficient for a resident to make his way home if his passport is not stamped. If it is stamped even at the port of entry, the resident would even have problems if that country was his final destination.

This was the reply I received from EU -

We have consulted the Directorate-General for Justice and Consumers (DG JUST). They can inform you that when transiting via another country than the Member State of residence, passports should not be stamped on entry/exit. Residence permit holders are not limited to the maximum period of stay of 90/180 days within the Schengen area as they have a right of residence going beyond these days in the Member State which issued the residence permit.

As it happens, with permanent residence and travelling with citizen wife, I'm not time limited anyway.

 

[westernman]

Don't get hung up on stamps.

They know exactly where you have been and whether you have residency or not. You do not need to show your residency card for passport control to know that. It comes up on their screen anyway.

I have flown from France to non-Schengen EU countries (and back) and have not had any stamps. I only presented my UK passport. No stamps. No questions.

If you are bending rules, they will know. You should be paranoid.
May be they don't care too much at the moment for a minor transgression or cannot be bothered with it when there are 5,000 other people in the in the passport control queue behind you.

 

[BurnitBlue]

This was the reply I received from EU -

We have consulted the Directorate-General for Justice and Consumers (DG JUST). They can inform you that when transiting via another country than the Member State of residence, passports should not be stamped on entry/exit. Residence permit holders are not limited to the maximum period of stay of 90/180 days within the Schengen area as they have a right of residence going beyond these days in the Member State which issued the residence permit.

As it happens, with permanent residence and travelling with citizen wife, I'm not time limited anyway.

I have been saying that for the last few years, but been shouted down by posters references to the Schengen FAQ that declares that residents of member states are limited to 90/180 in the rest of Schengen. I too have permanent residence and a Swedish Family so had little incentive to investigate further.

Your comment seemed to seperate residents in transit from outside EU and residents on internal EU travel. This seemed to me to be a departure from accepted wisdom. If I recall the operative words being argued regarding the letter you got from DG JUST were that "right of residence going beyond these days (90/180) (was valid only) "IN" the member state which issued the residence permit". I admit that I always read it that residents had unlimited time in the rest of Schengen despite the Schengen Web Sites that implied otherwise. Plain as daylight to me. It is why there are so many rich lawyers in the world. One two letter word can turn a sentence upside down.

I will leave at that and wait for implementation in 2023.