San Marino Flag for pleasure craft in the Med

[Alicatt]

R U sure it doesn't imply also that whoever in command must have an IT license? For non-Italian posters, yes, it's a full-fledged license for any mobo above 40hp, not "just" a qualification.
I'm not asking because I'm sure this is the case, mind - I never checked because it's a problem I don't have.
But I half recall to have read something along these lines...

For here in Belgium to get a Belgian flag there must be at least 50% ownership by either a resident, natural person of Belgium, or a legal entity residing in Belgium ie. a company registered in Belgium, a boating licence is only required if the boat is greater 15m, and/or, can go faster than 20km/h
My UK issued ICC for coastal and inland waters (CEVNI) from the RYA covers me to operate our 11.6m boat that can go faster than 20km/h on the sea and inland waters, and my RYA VHF SRC is also recognised to operate the radios onboard the boat.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

For here in Belgium to get a Belgian flag there must be at least 50% ownership by either a resident, natural person of Belgium, or a legal entity residing in Belgium ie. a company registered in Belgium, a boating licence is only required if the boat is greater 15m, and/or, can go faster than 20km/h
My UK issued ICC for coastal and inland waters (CEVNI) from the RYA covers me to operate our 11.6m boat that can go faster than 20km/h on the sea and inland waters, and my RYA VHF SRC is also recognised to operate the radios onboard the boat.

Would that also hold true if you wanted to operate and skipper commercial charters? Or would you need additional qualifications / endorsements?

 

[benjenbav]

I’m afraid the OP might think I’ve been quite negative on the connected threads and perhaps this won’t change anybody’s mind.

But, fwiw, I don’t think the OP has a plan to avoid or evade authority; rather that they want to find a way to understand and perhaps defray some of the costs of chasing their dreams.

This thread has largely looked at the fact that there are regulatory issues imposed by individual states on the commercial operation of boats.

A separate issue that I would urge the OP to research is the attitude of insurers to what they propose and how that overlaps with the regulations of Switzerland, San Marino, UK, Poland or wherever they choose to flag.

Obviously if you’re not going to have an accident you don’t need to insure beyond whatever (if any) is compulsory within the regime or territory in which you operate.

But once you start having third parties on board you run the risk of something like this article happening.

Eco expert sues for £1.4m after losing finger in yacht fridge door

Yes, I know some will say that it’s a news source that likes to print that sort of thing; that anyone can make a claim that the courts may or may not uphold.

But, ask yourself, as owner, will you always feel lucky?

 

[Grubble]

Eco expert sues for £1.4m after losing finger in yacht fridge door

A reminder to always take out travel insurance when you go on holiday and make sure you tick the dangerous sports box if you are going to be doing daredevil stuff like operating a fridge.

 

[billskip]

But, fwiw, I don’t think the OP has a plan to avoid or evade authority; rather that they want to find a way to understand and perhaps defray some of the costs of chasing their dreams.

I tend to go with that.....loopholes sometimes exist and searching all avenues can maybe expose one.
That said however, the confrontation with the jobsworth may prove to be an expensive experience in time, money and embarrassing.
You may be right, but can you afford to prove it?

 

[jfm]

A reminder to always take out travel insurance when you go on holiday and make sure you tick the dangerous sports box if you are going to be doing daredevil stuff like operating a fridge.

Keep in mind that if Mr (or Ms) Fridge Accident has travel insurance, his insurers will come after the boat owner rather than Mr Fridge Accident himself because his claim against the boat owner is subrogated to his insurance company. So boat owners need their own insurance as bjb says (or very deep pockets and a very empty diary).

 

[Skipper Felice]

That was the simple question in post no. 1:
View attachment 186184

Does anyone have experience with the ship register / flag of San Marino?

I have done some research on various flags for motor yachts in the Mediterranean and I find the San Marino conditions attractive.
San Marino Maritime Legislation

I didn't realize that many here see as the first point the RE flags. I also didn't realize that certain members here can't distinguish between jokes, humor, irony and reality ... and I am not good in understandig British humor.

I need to find a good and suitable flag for my new boat in Europe/Italy - the Med. And for that I'm studying the maritime laws and above all looking for people with real experience in the Mediterranean.

As a non-UK and non-EU citizen, not all shipping registers are open to me.
The UK/RE, Spain, France and Malta don't seem to be suitable or complicated / expensive for me as a Swiss citizen. Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands don't fit either.
That almost leaves Poland and little San Marino. Poland is easy, cheap and can be done directly (online) for a bit of money ... But I don't like the political situation in Poland and I don't speak their language.

Unfortunately, no one in the group here has concrete experience with San Marino: Perhaps some people know, in Switzerland we have four official languages: German, French, ITALIAN, and some special "Rätoromanisch" ..... After studying the laws of San Marino and my good access to Italy, I decided to register / flag my new boat in the ship register in San Marino. This will be done over a legal agent ... and with all the required legal requirements including insurance.

Thank you very much for all the constructive and qualified information from the group here.

 

[Alicatt]

Would that also hold true if you wanted to operate and skipper commercial charters? Or would you need additional qualifications / endorsements?

You need additional qualifications for commercial use and you need a coded boat to operate on too, not looked into it for a non Belgian operating a commercial boat though as I'm not going to be doing that.

I was going to do a powerboat advanced in Scotland when I was back home last but decided against it as I just did not have the time, and my night sea hours were a bit short too.
In Belgium sailing after dark (after 6pm!) is not really done as the canal locks stop operation from 18:00 until 06:00, where as in The Netherlands they operate 24/7. I have only done a half hour in the full dark and about 4 hours in twilight in Belgium, usually getting through that last bridge opening just before 6pm when heading to the home haven.

 

[Seastoke]

That was the simple question in post no. 1:
View attachment 186184


I didn't realize that many here see as the first point the RE flags. I also didn't realize that certain members here can't distinguish between jokes, humor, irony and reality ... and I am not good in understandig British humor.

I need to find a good and suitable flag for my new boat in Europe/Italy - the Med. And for that I'm studying the maritime laws and above all looking for people with real experience in the Mediterranean.

As a non-UK and non-EU citizen, not all shipping registers are open to me.
The UK/RE, Spain, France and Malta don't seem to be suitable or complicated / expensive for me as a Swiss citizen. Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands don't fit either.
That almost leaves Poland and little San Marino. Poland is easy, cheap and can be done directly (online) for a bit of money ... But I don't like the political situation in Poland and I don't speak their language.

Unfortunately, no one in the group here has concrete experience with San Marino: Perhaps some people know, in Switzerland we have four official languages: German, French, ITALIAN, and some special "Rätoromanisch" ..... After studying the laws of San Marino and my good access to Italy, I decided to register / flag my new boat in the ship register in San Marino. This will be done over a legal agent ... and with all the required legal requirements including insurance.

Thank you very much for all the constructive and qualified information from the group here.

. Good luck and safe passage.

 

[colhel]

This flag will be the answer to all your problems., but possibly start a few more

YBW Forum Burgee – Smart Marine

 

[Tranona]

That was the simple question in post no. 1:
View attachment 186184


I didn't realize that many here see as the first point the RE flags. I also didn't realize that certain members here can't distinguish between jokes, humor, irony and reality ... and I am not good in understandig British humor.

I need to find a good and suitable flag for my new boat in Europe/Italy - the Med. And for that I'm studying the maritime laws and above all looking for people with real experience in the Mediterranean.

As a non-UK and non-EU citizen, not all shipping registers are open to me.
The UK/RE, Spain, France and Malta don't seem to be suitable or complicated / expensive for me as a Swiss citizen. Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands don't fit either.
That almost leaves Poland and little San Marino. Poland is easy, cheap and can be done directly (online) for a bit of money ... But I don't like the political situation in Poland and I don't speak their language.

Unfortunately, no one in the group here has concrete experience with San Marino: Perhaps some people know, in Switzerland we have four official languages: German, French, ITALIAN, and some special "Rätoromanisch" ..... After studying the laws of San Marino and my good access to Italy, I decided to register / flag my new boat in the ship register in San Marino. This will be done over a legal agent ... and with all the required legal requirements including insurance.

Thank you very much for all the constructive and qualified information from the group here.

You don't have to make that decision now. Wait until you find the boat as it may well already be registered on a flag that you can use. For example if you buy a Princess, maybe from a British owner it could well be on on the UK Part 1 register and transferrable to you.

Appreciate that you are trying to find out the best way to proceed, but suspect you are over thinking things at this point. Have you actually asked the UK registry what is required as I think you will find it is less onerous than you imagine. The biggest stumbling block is usually getting the initial survey, but the registry has a list of authorised surveyors in all the popular boating areas in the Med. It is the oldest and most widely used registry for very good reasons. Likewise the Jersey and Guernsey registries. San Marino exists because there are people who own boats who cannot use the established registries, usually for political reasons.

 

[jfm]

Happy to stand corrected Tranona, but I doubt the survey is required for a boat already on the register. The issue Felice needs to navigate is eligibility, and that would require Felice to form a company in (eg) Jersey, and that's why it costs a few £k pa not a few £hundred pa, as I mentioned above.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Happy to stand corrected Tranona, but I doubt the survey is required for a boat already on the register….

That’s right, I just bought a Part 1 registered boat. All that I needed was to fill in a form, pay a small fee, and send copies of the signed bills of sale. A few days later I got the re-registration papers back. Same number of course. Was very straightforward and cheap to do.

 

[Tranona]

Happy to stand corrected Tranona, but I doubt the survey is required for a boat already on the register. The issue Felice needs to navigate is eligibility, and that would require Felice to form a company in (eg) Jersey, and that's why it costs a few £k pa as I mentioned above.

No, that is why I suggested a transfer is potentially less hassle compared with a new registration. Yes eligibility is an issue, and admit to not knowing the current cost of maintaining a company in Jersey. San Marino does not require that but its set up costs are substantially higher at 2K euros plus the survey.

 

[Seastoke]

It all seem rather daunting owning a large boat, thank god for my micro pus

 

[Skipper Felice]

It all seem rather daunting owning a large boat, thank god for my micro pus

Ok I see ... my proposal with 10 euros/litre was bad ... May I send you a better invitation: If we manage to meet next year around the Med. you are kindly invited to my special boat surprise dinner: Swiss "Chäs - Fondue" on the Fly.
As always, Prosecco is free, we will have insurance for our guests on the boat. I personally will check, that nobody takes beer out of the fridge - so nobody could have any accident with a broken finger.
But remeber: You have to find your way to the yacht - we can not provide a Bentley avec chauffeur.

 

[Skipper Felice]

... Appreciate that you are trying to find out the best way to proceed, but suspect you are over thinking things at this point.

Yes - thank you. I will still consider the best if I can just stay with a flag. But I am now prepared for a good descision.
And I really shoud go forward in the search for a good boat.

 

[Grubble]

Keep in mind that if Mr (or Ms) Fridge Accident has travel insurance, his insurers will come after the boat owner rather than Mr Fridge Accident himself because his claim against the boat owner is subrogated to his insurance company. So boat owners need their own insurance as bjb says (or very deep pockets and a very empty diary).

The problem is of course when Mr Boat Owner has been charterting illegally so his own insurance doesn't cover the claim and Mr Boat Owner has no assets to speak of that would cover the giant claim. That is when having your own travel insurance pays dividends.

I run a business in the travel industry and it always amazes me how many people don't bother with travel insurance - not bothering with insurance saves a lot of money, until you have a claim.

 

[jfm]

The problem is of course when Mr Boat Owner has been charterting illegally so his own insurance doesn't cover the claim and Mr Boat Owner has no assets to speak of that would cover the giant claim. That is when having your own travel insurance pays dividends.

I run a business in the travel industry and it always amazes me how many people don't bother with travel insurance - not bothering with insurance saves a lot of money, until you have a claim.

We are at crossed purposes ref your first para - no matter.

On your second para, I don't think you should be amazed that people don't buy retail travel insurance. I do plenty of travel (150+ flights pa) and never buy it because it feels to me like a scam - full of exclusions and limitations. I'd love to see the claims paid ratio. If the sellers made it more attractive more people would buy it imho.

 

[Irish Rover]

We are at crossed purposes ref your first para - no matter.

On your second para, I don't think you should be amazed that people don't buy retail travel insurance. I do plenty of travel (150+ flights pa) and never buy it because it feels to me like a scam - full of exclusions and limitations. I'd love to see the claims paid ratio. If the sellers made it more attractive more people would buy it imho.

And if things haven't changed since I was in the know the travel agent gets 30/40% commission for selling the policy.