San Marino Flag for pleasure craft in the Med

[Skipper Felice]

That does not mention anything about UN ECE IWC Resolution 40.
Without that it is not an ICC.

I doubt that it will be accepted everywhere.

It is ... The "Swiss Certificate of Competence for Ocean Yachting" is issued by the Swiss Gov. under UN ECE IWC Resolution 40 ... and is well recognized all over the world.

 

[Irish Rover]

I registered in Jersey some years ago. The process couldn't be more straightforward and the registry staff are super helpful. They will give you a list of potential representatives - expect to pay no more than a couple of hundred pounds.

My bad.

 

[Skipper Felice]

It is ... The "Swiss Certificate of Competence for Ocean Yachting" is issued by the Swiss Gov. under UN ECE IWC Resolution 40 ... and is well recognized all over the world.

Some Information

International Certificates for Operator of Pleasure Craft (Res. No. 40) | UNECE

Look at the map: Most countries all over the world have no ICC on Res 40 or something. All over the world, it is a complete mess with all those "masters of something", "certificate of something" or "licence for this and that" ...

And you see: Spain, France, Italy and most other Med. countries have no ICC on Res. 40 - all hold some kind of paper that says that the are some kind of a skipper, captain or boat expert with some kind of experience.

 

[westernman]

It is ... The "Swiss Certificate of Competence for Ocean Yachting" is issued by the Swiss Gov. under UN ECE IWC Resolution 40 ... and is well recognized all over the world.

If it says UN ECE IWC Resolution 40 on it then it is OK, but I did not see that on your example.

 

[jfm]

Yes - I am just Swiss - NO other or second citizenship ... But thats very ok ...! And therefore it makes little sense for me as a Swiss with an EU taxed boat to have an RE flag. Well folks - I can't join the friendly RE community.

Not sure i agree that.
What does "EU taxed boat" mean?

 

[Skipper Felice]

Not my royal city. I'm Irish.

Oh - sorry - but no problem: from Rotterdam we do some sm south around GB and will find Dublin straight North ...

 

[westernman]

An ICC is accepted world over for hiring a pleasure boat.
It does not allow you to operate commercially (i.e. take paying passengers).

For commercial operations, you have to follow the laws of the country you operate in.
You cannot retreat behind another flag and an ICC.

 

[jfm]

We still need to talk about VAT / EU and UK (no EU)

Scenario 1
If I buy a boat in Italy, France or Spain, EU VAT is paid and accounted for. The boat remains in the EU, e.g. Italy and is therefore EU goods. No problem with customs and tax authorities. The boat is registered with EU flag (e.g. Poland, France, Italy or San Marino ...) Everything is ok and legal.

Scenario 2
If I buy a boat in Italy, France or Spain, EU VAT is paid and shown. The boat remains in the EU, e.g. Italy, and is therefore an EU product.
Now I make a registration in e.g. Jersey / Red ensign state. This would mean that the boat is exported from the EU and becomes GB goods. I then have to re-do the customs status and possibly pay GB VAT? Is this a problem with customs and tax authorities?

Do I make some mistake with VAT and EU flag or Red ensign state?

Scenario 1: the boat that you buy might be VAT paid, but also it might not. Both "flavours" of boats are available on the used boat market.

Scenario 2: no this is not correct. If the boat is EU VAT paid then it will remain EU VAT paid if you merely change its flag to RE or any other flag. In this context, flag is irrelevant to VAT

 

[Hurricane]

Scenario 2: no this is not correct. If the boat is EU VAT paid then it will remain EU VAT paid if you merely change its flag to RE or any other flag. In this context, flag is irrelevant to VAT

As I understand it, JFM, the boat only remains EU VAT paid until it leaves EU waters for more than 3 years. So he might need to take care if he is planning on some long term western Med cruising.

 

[PlanB]

When the OP originally posted, he suggested he was a newbie. From his posts since, this claim would seem to be far from reality.
it seems that every time he is given some information, a new scenario rears its head.
I'd suggest he retains a maritime lawyer to advise him on the requirements of his real objective, rather than fling out a series of hypothetical situations at the well meaning folk here.

 

[Tranona]

We still need to talk about VAT / EU and UK (no EU)

Scenario 1
If I buy a boat in Italy, France or Spain, EU VAT is paid and accounted for. The boat remains in the EU, e.g. Italy and is therefore EU goods. No problem with customs and tax authorities. The boat is registered with EU flag (e.g. Poland, France, Italy or San Marino ...) Everything is ok and legal.

Scenario 2
If I buy a boat in Italy, France or Spain, EU VAT is paid and shown. The boat remains in the EU, e.g. Italy, and is therefore an EU product.
Now I make a registration in e.g. Jersey / Red ensign state. This would mean that the boat is exported from the EU and becomes GB goods. I then have to re-do the customs status and possibly pay GB VAT? Is this a problem with customs and tax authorities?

Do I make some mistake with VAT and EU flag or Red ensign state?

Both incorrect. as already noted there is no connection between flag of registration and VAT status.

As a non EU citizen you can own an EU VAT paid boat that has free circulation within the EU or you can own a non EU VAT paid boat which is permitted to remain in the EU for up to 18 months without paying EU VAT. This period can be renewed by leaving EU waters and re-entering to begin another 18 months. There is no restriction on the number of times you can do this. Swiss residents have been doing this for years - since the rules were introduced in 1992. There is no requirement in EU law to register the boat in the EU, nor any requirement to hold any qualifications as skipper unless it is a requirement of the flag state. It is of course sensible to have the qualification and more acceptable to have it supported by an ICC.

UK registration does not affect any VAT status, although be aware that some EU states have difficulty with this particularly Greece which has in the past treated UK flagged EU paid boats differently under their local laws. However in practice this does not affect cruising as a visitor.

While all this sounds very complicated provided you stay with private pleasure cruising in a boat like you are proposing it really is not difficult. In your position I would buy the best boat for the money you have. If you can cope with the "18 month" rule a non VAT paid boat might provide better value, but a much better choice (because of the larger number and range available) with a VAT paid boat. Register it in Switzerland, forget about any commercial activity and enjoy your boat. When you come to sell you will likely find a privately owned, well cared for EU VAT paid boat much more attractive to a buyer.

 

[Seastoke]

When the OP originally posted, he suggested he was a newbie. From his posts since, this claim would seem to be far from reality.
it seems that every time he is given some information, a new scenario rears its head.
I'd suggest he retains a maritime lawyer to advise him on the requirements of his real objective, rather than fling out a series of hypothetical situations at the well meaning folk here.

Maybe change his name to skipper Fleece (the tax man). Com

 

[Irish Rover]

Maybe change his name to skipper Fleece (the tax man). Com

That's more than a bit unfair. Of course he should look for the best available value and most economic and tax efficient way of acquiring a boat. I bought a Swiss owned and registered EU VAT NOT PAID boat in Greece in 2017 and registered it in Jersey. I was entitled to do this as a non EU resident. I wasn't fleecing anyone.

 

[Seastoke]

That's more than a bit unfair. Of course he should look for the best available value and most economic and tax efficient way of acquiring a boat. I bought a Swiss owned and registered EU VAT NOT PAID boat in Greece in 2017 and registered it in Jersey. I was entitled to do this as a non EU resident. I wasn't fleecing anyone.

I am upset , he wanted charge me €10 a litre that’s more than champagne in Stoke. Don’t forget ,I am the forum fool.

 

[Irish Rover]

I am upset , he wanted charge me €10 a litre that’s more than champagne in Stoke. Don’t forget ,I am the forum fool.

I've no idea what you're on about. IMO you owe the OP an apology.

 

[jfm]

As I understand it, JFM, the boat only remains EU VAT paid until it leaves EU waters for more than 3 years. So he might need to take care if he is planning on some long term western Med cruising.

Yes correct - I wasn't drilling into that level of detail bearing in mind his stated cruising grounds which don't seem to take him far from EU. There would be other conditions too, but I'm trying to keep this simple/high level before getting fatigue

 

[jfm]

Both incorrect. as already noted there is no connection between flag of registration and VAT status.

As a non EU citizen you can own an EU VAT paid boat that has free circulation within the EU or you can own a non EU VAT paid boat which is permitted to remain in the EU for up to 18 months without paying EU VAT. This period can be renewed by leaving EU waters and re-entering to begin another 18 months. There is no restriction on the number of times you can do this. Swiss residents have been doing this for years - since the rules were introduced in 1992. There is no requirement in EU law to register the boat in the EU (and in this scenario it would be imperative NOT to register it in the EU), nor any requirement to hold any qualifications as skipper unless it is a requirement of the flag state. It is of course sensible to have the qualification and more acceptable to have it supported by an ICC.

UK registration does not affect any VAT status, although be aware that some EU states have difficulty with this particularly Greece which has in the past treated UK flagged EU paid boats differently under their local laws. However in practice this does not affect cruising as a visitor.

While all this sounds very complicated provided you stay with private pleasure cruising in a boat like you are proposing it really is not difficult. In your position I would buy the best boat for the money you have. If you can cope with the "18 month" rule a non VAT paid boat might provide better value, but a much better choice (because of the larger number and range available) with a VAT paid boat. Register it in Switzerland, forget about any commercial activity and enjoy your boat. When you come to sell you will likely find a privately owned, well cared for EU VAT paid boat much more attractive to a buyer.

just added a tiny point above

 

[Clash]

I've no idea what you're on about. IMO you owe the OP an apology.

It's back the thread a bit. Our friend seems to want to use his (yet to be acquired) boat as an off-cert charter vessel.

 

[Irish Rover]

It's back the thread a bit. Our friend seems to want to use his (yet to be acquired) boat as an off-cert charter vessel.

I didn't see anything by the OP saying he was planning to evade tax as alleged or do anything else illegal. Maybe I missed something - could you quote what you're referring to please.

 

[Clash]

deleted