San Marino Flag for pleasure craft in the Med

[Clash]

I didn't see anything by the OP saying he was planning to evade tax as alleged or do anything else illegal. Maybe I missed something - could you quote what you're referring to please.

On the other thread about coding

Ok - thank you, this clarifies my understanding. Regarding the Med and Italy: Where can I find the regulations or requirements for Italy? Perhaps some of the experts around here have some links or names?

My understandig of taking some guests for some vacation days on your own, private peasure craft is NO "commercial charter" - and doing this is no regular, commercial business. If I command a boat as a skipper, this vessel will never leave the harbour without every high standard safety equipment for all crew/guests on board in perfect condition and with instructions to each member. What they pay is for food, drinks, prosecco, beer, rum ... a bed/cabin to sleep, some learning of nature, sea and seamanship and the energy ... swimming, sun and fun is for free )

 

[Skipper Felice]

I didn't see anything by the OP saying he was planning to evade tax as alleged or do anything else illegal. Maybe I missed something - could you quote what you're referring to please.

Thank you -
I have reported this new member "Clash" as beeing very unfriendly: he makes completely false statements and untenable accusations.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Thank you -
I have reported this new member "Clash" as beeing very unfriendly: he makes completely false statements and untenable accusations.

I don’t think you have helped yourself here by being unclear as to your intentions, hiding behind humour and trying to convey the idea that a casual and unregulated charter business is your end goal.

 

[jfm]

Reported for being unfriendly. Golly gosh.
The tax evasion post was made, or hinted, in 52. It really wasn't a big deal - keep your cardigans on
This is all getting a bit dull now. I'm beginning to think "bring back the spreadsheets - all is forgiven" .

 

[Skipper Felice]

I don’t think you have helped yourself here by being unclear as to your intentions, hiding behind humour and trying to convey the idea that a casual and unregulated charter business is your end goal.

Sorry - I did NEVER say that: I HAVE "idea that a casual and unregulated charter business is your end goal" .

I had the need for some very important clarification on some requirements, information and planning ideas. And thanks to some really quallified members around here, my learning curve is perhaps a little faster than some people here assume. In the last few days, I have studied around 200 pages of original laws that are relevant - I have of course all viewed online at the authorities.

The great interest in this forum here shown by several hundred viewers shows that these topics are very important.

But I also saw that some of the posts were complete nonsense - or people didn't understand my simple English - it's not my mother tongue.

I got now a clear understandig, HOW to proceed with my project and my ideas for having fun on the Med. A big THANK YOU to all posters with substantial information.
Skipper Felice

 

[Clash]

Thank you -
I have reported this new member "Clash" as beeing very unfriendly: he makes completely false statements and untenable accusations.

Show me where I made a false statement or a direct accusation.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Sorry - I did NEVER say that: I HAVE "idea that a casual and unregulated charter business is your end goal" .

…..

Well I disagree.

Ok - thank you, this clarifies my understanding. Regarding the Med and Italy: Where can I find the regulations or requirements for Italy? Perhaps some of the experts around here have some links or names?

My understandig of taking some guests for some vacation days on your own, private peasure craft is NO "commercial charter" - and doing this is no regular, commercial business. If I command a boat as a skipper, this vessel will never leave the harbour without every high standard safety equipment for all crew/guests on board in perfect condition and with instructions to each member. What they pay is for food, drinks, prosecco, beer, rum ... a bed/cabin to sleep, some learning of nature, sea and seamanship and the energy ... swimming, sun and fun is for free )

Thanks to all posters above - I fully understand and I will try to study the law and the situation:

I also know, that MANY Owners of motor yachts around the Med. offer "skippered charter" or "education on motoryachting" on a private basis and I know, they have no registration or any coding.
Look perhaps on many offers around Boot mieten & Yachtcharter | zu den besten Preisen ... most private and most of them perhaps no coding.
Skippers from Switzerland: Carezza blu Yachting (yacht under Polish flag, full insurance, normal private owner (swiss company), swiss contract ...)
other / same examle Angebote/Buchen and I know they are cruising since many years.

... great ... wellcome - sry we do not have chauffeur avec Bentley - and boarding would be around Genova. You are free to bring your favorite beer, Prosecco is free on board. You just have to pay for fuel during our fun and crazy cruise ... All fun and good spirit is wellcome - but all insurance and responsibility is up to you. For fuel we charge you around 10 euros/L ... ... and sorry, we do not have black friday sales.

Maybe this is a language difference, but this has read to me all along that you want to defray the costs of your boat by chartering under the pretence of ‘expenses’…

 

[Skipper Felice]

Newbee question: What is "boat / vessel coding"

Is it for this reason??

NO !

 

[Irish Rover]

I think some posters need to take a step back here. If, and I stress if, the OP had notions of engaging in some charter business with the intention of helping with his costs, he wouldn't be the first prospective boat owner to think this was possible, and he won't be the last. In most cases it's simply down to naivety, rather than any criminal intent. Instead of throwing around accusations we could leave it to those with experience to point out all the pitfalls
There has been a tendency on the forum for some time now to give some new posters a hard time (I was guilty myself in one case and I had to apologise when I realised my first assumption was wrong) and some of them just packed it in, in the face of what could be regarded as bullying or abuse.

 

[Grubble]

Yes, cheap and easy to do is maybe the reason, but has it only changed recently to become cheap and easy?

ie what has changed in the last couple of years to make people go for the Polish flag? Because up until very recently you didn't see any Polish flags around majorca and now they seem tobe everywhere.

I'm far from an expert, but I think the rules changed in Poland in 2020 which then made it easier for foreigners to register their boats. It's certainly worth looking into as an alternative to being Spanish flagged.

 

[Seastoke]

I think some posters need to take a step back here. If, and I stress if, the OP had notions of engaging in some charter business with the intention of helping with his costs, he wouldn't be the first prospective boat owner to think this was possible, and he won't be the last. In most cases it's simply down to naivety, rather than any criminal intent. Instead of throwing around accusations we could leave it to those with experience to point out all the pitfalls
There has been a tendency on the forum for some time now to give some new posters a hard time (I was guilty myself in one case and I had to apologise when I realised my first assumption was wrong) and some of them just packed it in, in the face of what could be regarded as bullying or abuse.

I disagree , the op has explained in far better English than I have that , he is looking to do chartering without paying out for insurance coding and tax. Then he explained how he was going to make money chartering ,by charging €10 a litre per person , so take four guests he is doing say twenty knots around 200 litre an hour = €8000 per hour whilst travelling , not bad.

 

[prinex]

Felice you may be a bit mislead here on the charter thing (specially in the med). In Italy for example you can simply offer your boat for charter - its called "noleggio occasionale", has a 20% flat tax rate and comes with a series of simple requirements - boats needs to be italian flagged, skipper needs to have a valid boat license, max 42 days a year etc - you can google for "DECRETO-LEGGE 24 gennaio 2012, n. 1" or better ask a qualified agente marittimo in Italy or any yacht broker they all know exactly how this works.

This had the side effect of course that a lot of people rent out their own boats and prices are very low - for example you can charter a Prestige 420S in Sanremo for 800 Euro a day - including skipper. But is the same everywhere in Italy.

What you are looking at (Carezza Blu etc) are proper charter operations. That is there is a company estabilished somewhere which owns the boats, has proper insurance / knowledge of the law, the skipper has the relevant licenses for the area where he is travelling, crew is registered and employed, their insurance has been paid and so on. The fact that this structure may be organized according to tax efficiency has nothing to do with the hard fact that - for example - if the italian coast guard comes on board and you cannot explain how a crew member is paid "he is just a friend" then you are in for a nightmare of a nightmare. And the italian are to easy ones compared to the greek ones for example.

And even if you manage to scratch a few thousands ferrying people around for a week - at which price ? Sleeping in the absurd crew cabin of a SQ58 or AZ55 ? For boats this size the crew cabin is only the deckhand cabin - that is a poor sod which is there just to hand lines, clean, stay abord when you go somewhere with the tender.

Just do like basically everyone of us does - buy according to your budget, and have fun. If you want do charter forget the fun and treat it like it is - a business and a quite hard one in my opinion.

 

[Irish Rover]

I disagree , the op has explained in far better English than I have that , he is looking to do chartering without paying out for insurance coding and tax. Then he explained how he was going to make money chartering ,by charging €10 a litre per person , so take four guests he is doing say twenty knots around 200 litre an hour = €8000 per hour whilst travelling , not bad.

I guess that's based on another thread which I have not read. If what you say is true, why not deal with it on that thread, or reference it with quotations on this thread, rather than posting snide comments. I responded to what I saw and read on this thread.

 

[Grubble]

for example - if the italian coast guard comes on board and you cannot explain how a crew member is paid "he is just a friend" then you are in for a nightmare of a nightmare. And the italian are to easy ones compared to the greek ones for example.

IIRC Spain changed the rules for chartering about 10 years ago (or more) and started impounding foreign flagged boats that were chartering. Felice needs a separate spreadsheet entry for "Boat impounded by police."

 

[alandalus11]

NO !

No need to shout. I only asked??? I have reported you for scaring and upsetting me.

 

[Tranona]

Just do like basically everyone of us does - buy according to your budget, and have fun. If you want do charter forget the fun and treat it like it is - a business and a quite hard one in my opinion.

Sensible words. That is exactly how we treated our charter boat. It is a business and any private use is incidental and a bonus.

 

[Portofino]

I think he needs to be an Italian citizen for the IT flag . Not convinced they will accept his qualifications either .But this doesn’t matter as he can’t get it on the IT register anyhow .

This is why he’s found the San Marino flag , which on the face of it allows 90 days of seemingly hassle free ( low spec requirements) chartering .

 

[westernman]

I have a subsidiary company in Italy.

For the tax authorities, it is not sufficient to simply have an invoice or a bill for someone that you paid. You need an official document from your bank saying who you paid, into what account and why (i.e. copy of the invoice with their stamp on it). And of course the person you are paying has send the invoice to you by email to your official PEC email account - which is a kind of certified official email account.

Banking in Italy is a right PITA. It took an entire day to set up an account for the company. In person of course. No way to do it remotely. I was accompanied by a Notary agent who had with him all the documentation for the company. It involved about 40 one time codes sent by SMS etc.

French, German and English bureaucracy is a doddle in comparison. Even Greek bureaucracy is much easier - although sometimes a bit weird.

 

[prinex]

I think he needs to be an Italian citizen for the IT flag . Not convinced they will accept his qualifications either .But this doesn’t matter as he can’t get it on the IT register anyhow .

This is why he’s found the San Marino flag , which on the face of it allows 90 days of seemingly hassle free ( low spec requirements) chartering .

You need to be EU citizen thats enough. I mean if your boat is in Italy and you are dutch it maybe more convenient to fly the italian flag - it just makes things easier when dealing with port authority, insurance etc.

CH never wanted, UK opted out so here we are - no easy chartering for you guys !

 

[MapisM]

You need to be EU citizen thats enough

R U sure it doesn't imply also that whoever in command must have an IT license? For non-Italian posters, yes, it's a full-fledged license for any mobo above 40hp, not "just" a qualification.
I'm not asking because I'm sure this is the case, mind - I never checked because it's a problem I don't have.
But I half recall to have read something along these lines...